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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 4, 2010 - 03:41pm PT
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Day Use Permits
Steve Roper, Les Wilson, DR, Largo, Warbler, Chapman, WB, Shipoopoi, Coz, Maysho, Deuce4, Elliot R, G. Murphy, many, many others who've spent 100s of days in the Valley...would be great to have you weigh in either way, like Peter Haan did. This happens to be the site where yosemite climbers (and NPS lurkers) can read what other yosemite climbers think. I'm sure many will contact the NPS directly as well.
Amazing that this:
http://supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1072522/Half_Dome_Day_Use_Permits
has not generated more comments. It just falls off of the front page.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Unfortunately, lots of great stuff falls off the front page.
The Half Dome permits would be kinda lame, but will affect the tourons a lot more than the average climber.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Ron Gomez idea to do away with them is great for climbers, but the NPS would never do it. Too bad, without the cables it is a nice 5.7 route isn't it?
You pay a lot more than $1.50 to drive into the Park. Seems like having a specific charge for Half Dome Cable climb is bureaucratic and cheesy.
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Gunkie
Trad climber
East Coast US
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And I thought this was to begin something like, "A Japanese hiking group...."
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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that photo makes the place look nightmarish. way smarter to solo the 5.2 flakes n' slabs off to the left of the cables.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2010 - 06:15pm PT
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Dingus,
If you read the thread linked above, several people, particularly srbphoto, Moosie and Munge, make good points on this...
1. There is no need for these permits. Fatalities are inherent to any activity with risk, and are very low in this case. There is really no great problem with congestion and a wait on foot in any case. We all deal with these on a regular basis in all kinds of activities. It could mean higher fatalities in one big accident--same as it does in many other activities.
2. If the NPS wants to improve the route, physical solutions will best help with congestion. (Another cable, etc.)
3. More and better education will discourage those who are unprepared ("you are risking your life, etc.").
4. The increased bureaucracy, relation to technical climbing (the cables are really a technical climb with permanent aid installed), and additional fees (paid to a company for processing) are all terrible precedents. What will they come up with next? is the question.
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jewedlaw
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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That picture must be a photoshop, because the ranger in the boot is wearing a blue cap instead of a flat-top.
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David Wilson
climber
CA
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another way to look at this, especially with the above picture in mind, is that given 84,000 people went up the cables in a year, people are actually being incredibly safe and careful. just give the people one more cable and a few foot boards and leave the rangers on the valley floor ( or better yet in modesto )
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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The question gets thorny once the conga line gets hundreds long. You know by the very nature of the Park Service that they will to control or try and control the numbers, because control is what authorities tend to do. There's good and bad to this.
Some of the bad is tied to the faux reasons that are often posited - like ecological reasons for cutting back on the Half Dome crowds, or that the ocassional death warrents rationing and permits. Also, though the park service says the permits are only a buck fifty and that this is not a money making affair - fine, but hold them to it, meaning any money generated from citations given for NOT having the permits, such proceeds MUST go to a charity. Do you think that will fly, or do you think there just might be a ranger stationed up at the Dome on weekends to check on those permits - and scribble out a hundred dollar (or more) ticket if things are not in order.
We all know as a simple and incontrovertible fact that once the Forest Service introduces the policy of exchanging money for day use rights, the business of fees and regulations, and enforcing same, can only escalate till (fill in the blank).
Maybe just put up with the high numbers on the Cable Route for those few weekends a year that the crowds are truly horrendous.
JL
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Radish
Trad climber
SeKi, California
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The Forest Service and the National Park Service are two different groups, the Forest Service is the Dept. of Agriculture and the Park Service is the Dept. of the Interior. Both I'm sure will be stretched to the max on budgets from the cuts coming. I think the permits are a good idea for the peak months. We topped out from doing Snake Dike and ran into 12 ladies in pumps and plastic water bottles getting ready to go down at 5 in the eve. one day in the summer. I wanted to stick around just to see if they made it back!
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Rocman
Trad climber
Reno,NV
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PERMITES,$$$ since I have not gone up the cables,just down will I need to get a permite before I leave the valley?
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 5, 2010 - 12:41pm PT
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With just myself in mind, I'd like the cables removed and the holes filled. But that is impractical and would rob--now we know--roughly 84,000 novice climbers/year of what for many would be the final leg one of their greatest adventures.
I'm also not OK with chopping the bolt ladder off of Texas flake, etc. which is the same set-up--so I'd be a hypocrite. There are plenty of exclusionary purists who would want both. I think it was Kauk who said the bolts are no problem, try erasing the roads, or words to that effect.
As a starting point, just imagine better tread designs than sketchy, weathered 2x4s (last time I was there), making the stanchions less wobbly, and placing a well-designed graphic at the bottom discouraging those who might be in over their heads.
Then study the effects before and after--if the PS is so bent on ""fixing" this.
[edit: by bottom I mean in the Valley, not base of cables]
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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JL
Citations are very, very, very rarely given out for permit violations. A friend of mine is a volunteer ranger out in Humber Park, has been for years, and has never called in an LEO for a citation or heard of it happening. Even so, yes I agree that any money generated towards that should go to charity, and yes they would never do that.
Like Werner said, its an ugly thing, but there really isn't much else to do. Take down the cables? For hundreds of thousands of people that hike is their first experience to something magical in the wilderness, something that we cannot gauge the value of. How many people took a more sudden interest in their national parks and the natural world around them because of an adventure just like this? I agree that planning a few months ahead of time is a pain (if you only have weekends off, and decide that a weekend is a good time to go), would it be too difficult to issue the permits at the wilderness center? Why would any more employees be needed?
Looking at sister hikes (front trail to Whitney) I think there is really no perfect solution, and at least trying something different is a good step. The precedents being set here for park-climber relations are unheard of, it could not be easier to get around. On weekends, just for ASCENDING the cables, just in summer, only a buck fifty, climbers need not apply? Well, not sure what else you would ask for. You want them to pay you for going up the RNWF or what?
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WBraun
climber
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"Placing a well-designed graphic at the bottom discouraging those who might be in over their heads."
Doesn't even work.
I can tell you from experience.
I truly believe a large part of this fee and limit policy that is being enacted is due to the recent accidents and fatalities up there in the last couple of years.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 5, 2010 - 01:23pm PT
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since I've never seen a well-designed graphic that conveys a complex message in the valley, it would be hard to conclude that it would not be at all effective. But I'll take your word for it.
The permit system will not affect the fatality number, statistically speaking. Too many other factors involved, and it's a tiny number. Fixing the cables, restoring the texture, adding a cable, etc. are good ideas.
As someone pointed out, people may even push their luck w/ regard to the weather because they finally got their permit...could directly lead to problems. Even if it happens just a couple of times, you'd see the uptick...
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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I truly believe a large part of this fee and limit policy that is being enacted is due to the recent accidents and fatalities up there in the last couple of years.
Yes, but permits wont completely fix that because now people will try to climb it in poor weather because it is the only day they have a permit for.
Create a different kind of problem is all it will do. Plus they will have to station someone to enforce the permits, which means they will need to raise the cost of the permit as the current fee only covers the reservation system.
If you want to reduce the chance of accidents, then roughen the surface, put in more cross planks and put in a down cable. No bureaucracy needed.
The pile up only happens for about 3 hours. From about noon to about 3. Hike early to avoid it.
With this system, how many permits are going to go unused because people twist an ankle the day before, and just wake lazy or yadda yadda yadda.
Whitney is a different problem because people have to overnight for the most part. Few can do it in a day.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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"now people will try to climb it in poor weather because it is the only day they have a permit for"
Then they just wait till the weekday when they won't need one. Unless they are only there for that one weekend that year, in which case they will try to get up regardless of if they have a permit or not. But at least only 400 will, instead of 1100.
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Srbphoto
Trad climber
Kennewick wa
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Not everyone can just drop everything and go to the park on a weekday.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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My cousin used to be backcountry ranger, then chief ranger, in Yosemite, so I got an inside look at a lot of park service goings on. Not an easy job.
I agree that there are few citations given for permit violations by volunteer rangers in casual places like Humber Park, but move into Sequoia or Yosemite or Whitney and see how quickly you'll get written up for not having the proper paper work. Especially now, in this budget crunch, any potential revenue flow is milked. That's just human nature.
There is no solution, perfect or otherwise, for the Half Dome overcrowding. For all the people going up there, a few maniacs or bumblers are too be expected and a few accidents are a certainty. I'm sort of surprized a big domino ripper hasn't yet occured, where the entire conga line goes rag dolling down the slope.
Fact is, slogg up those cables is a high poinbt of many people's adult life. My brother in law, who is my age (50ish) trained all winter and baggd that noble peak with his neighbor this last year. It totally lit the guy's lamp.
So hell if I know what to do . . .
JL
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