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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 10, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
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[you] claim that laws were broken, when you can't even name them.
I have named one--when the FICA court gave orders to Verizon. The FICA court is only supposed to give warrants for international affairs, not domestic.
They broke the law right there. And, it's a big one too.
I thought you caught that, but I suppose I need to keep reminding you.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 10, 2013 - 07:30pm PT
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Interesting how quickly jghedge claims this is bunk:
American voters say 55 - 34 percent that Edward Snowden is a whistle-blower, rather than a traitor, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today.
July 10, 2013 - U.S. Voters Say Snowden Is Whistle-Blower, Not Traitor, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Big Shift On Civil Liberties vs. Counter-Terrorism
Getting back to the message...
The Manning defense rested today.
The defense for Pfc. Bradley Manning rested Wednesday afternoon after hearing testimony from Harvard Professor Yochai Benkler, a "fourth estate" scholar who argued that WikiLeaks is "a legitimate journalistic organization" rather than an organization which aids "terrorist organizations," as has been portrayed by the U.S. government.
...
"In bringing this charge the US gov is saying, quite literally," Pilkington adds, "that by leaking to a website, Manning was handing the information to Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida. If that doesn't put a chill on whistleblowing, I don't know what will."
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 10, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
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^^^ So, if somebody publishes anything the gov't claims is intel, they can slap an aiding the enemy charge on them, and away they go...
Personally I think that's super messed up, and I'm surprised that somebody with your intellect would think otherwise.
BTW, you know the Manning defense was barred from showing that there was no evidence of harm done by his leaks, right?
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 10, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
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Manning was handing the information to Osama bin Laden
LOL
Now we know where Hedge digs up his lies that he believes are true.
Unbelievably stupid.
Anyone using Bin Laden as being alive since 2002 is 100 percent known liar and total disinfo tool.
Hedge you are on vacation now.
You have no brains left .....
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Jul 10, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
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Let’s see if this is same: Maybe not but what stupid is, stupid does.
Two to three books were written about the raid on or the capture/killing of Bin Laden, as well as a couple of movies.
The book “No Easy Day” comes to mind or is best known one written by DEVGRU Red Squadron operator Matt Bissonnette ["Mark Owen”]. Even though the name they used was Seal Team Six is not correct. The United States Naval Special Warfare Development Group (NSWDG), or DEVGRU, is one of the United States' four secretive tier-one counter-terrorism and Special Mission Units. It is often referred to as SEAL Team Six, the name of its predecessor which was officially disbanded in 1987. DEVGRU is the correct name.
Because of its covert nature, the raid was a CIA operation with DEVGRU being transferred under CIA authority for its duration. Most information concerning DEVGRU is classified and details of its activities are not usually commented on by either the White House or the Department of Defense.
Now that the book had been written all sorts of comments were written of how classified information was compromised because of the Mark Owen’s giving all kinds of detailed information that the enemy now has in their little hands that can be used to bring down the USA.
CIA Director Leon Panetta was one of those being the most vocal. Some say it was political since it was so close to election time. Games people play is a better word: as in disinformation or information. Mostly the one first one is what you will get.
If you read the book, Owen did in a way pass on one and I mean only one piece of information that could be considered “Oh! That is new who would use that” but put it this way it is not classified. The CIA, NSA and any intelligent agency [unintelligent agency] can say toilet paper is classified and everyone thinking of using it would think do they mean we can’t use the classified section of a newspaper to wipe our ass?
During or right up to the raid when the guys were loading onto the stealth hilos the CIA tried to give the team to carry a special “classified” pack weighing 50# more or less; the team said screw you or close to it, we have enough to carry not on the list. The pack was one of those electronic pulses as in shutting off the communication, phones lines, electricity in a given circular range of so many/few miles.
Raid is on by the time the teams get to where/what to do; CIA uses their back up system by using an aircraft that accomplishes the same. Time is ticking away, they only have so many minutes [20?] but finally electricity is restored, phones back on line, cell phones working as well in the city and the delayed team members had two minutes of being in the dark and now in the light. Well not enough for anyone outside looking in. High walls surrounding Bin Laden’s hide away.
As for those stealth rear blades if their classified why would they be published by a well-known Government Agency 9 months before the raid. Providing if you knew where to look, you think that the enemy does not have access to this info?
So who is fooling who? It is the fools that let it happen. Government secrets as in leaking has been going on for years.
Not the team members to me, not Matt on writing the book, the only people I can think of is the biggest ones that sit in offices looking for additional classified sections when they run out of toilet paper.
Hell we all know who they are.
You have no brains left ..... Werner is correct on that one Hedge
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Jul 10, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
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ok
no way in hell i read this entire thread, i'm just wading in to sidetrack it...
my band just released a song about the spy center out here in ut - oddly enough, called 'spy center' ;-)
http://www.reverbnation.com/thehighexplosives
its the one on top in the player. the plan was to offer it as an optional 99 cent DL with half the money going to the EFF, but at the moment it is free. feel free to share it - enjoy !
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 10, 2013 - 09:16pm PT
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You think people with security clearances get to decide on their own what should and shouldn't be secret?
So, there should never be any whistleblowers? The Pentagon Papers should have never been leaked? The gov't should be able to do whatever it wants, in total secrecy? Is that what you're promoting?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 10, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
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Pagenmonkeyboy, lichen it!
Bitchen band name too.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 10, 2013 - 09:48pm PT
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Joe, I suppose I need to remind you of what I am talking about, right?
I got loud and clear what your stance is on Snowden. And I've said, we don't know. Let's talk about the meat of the subject, what he revealed about the NSA spying and whistleblowers in general. But you seem to be deaf to what I'm talking about, all you can to is stick yourself to some crap about Snowden revealing some secret ops that you don't know squat about the actual content.
OK, you want to talk solely about Snowden being a traitor because he defected to China > Russia with laptops full of intel, of which we have no idea the contents. Go ahead, have a field day.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 10, 2013 - 10:11pm PT
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ya know Joe, I think you're right! This is much ado about nothing.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 11, 2013 - 12:23am PT
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national security is immune to politics
Deluded to the max.
Hypnotized by Goebbels.
Everywhere politics worms it's way in.
One can never trust a politician ever ........
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 11, 2013 - 12:32am PT
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NSA is responsible for over 3000 American deaths for its treasonous actions.
Stupid Hedge has no clue .......
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jul 11, 2013 - 01:52am PT
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Special access program
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Special access programs (SAPs) in the federal government of the United States of America are security protocols that provides highly classified information with safeguards and access restrictions that exceed those for regular (collateral) classified information. It may be a type of black project. A SAP can only be initiated, modified, and terminated within their department or agency; the Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, Secretary of Energy, Secretary of Homeland Security, the Attorney General, the Director of National Intelligence; their principal deputies (e.g. the Deputy Secretary of State in DoS and the Deputy Secretary of Defense in DoD); or others designated in writing by the President.[1] In addition to collateral controls, a SAP may impose more stringent investigative or adjudicative requirements, specialized nondisclosure agreements, special terminology or markings, exclusion from standard contract investigations (carve-outs), and centralized billet systems.[2]
Contents
1 Types and categories
2 Marking
3 Examples
4 See also
5 References
6 External links
Types and categories
Two types of SAP exist: acknowledged and unacknowledged. The existence of an acknowledged SAP may be publicly disclosed, but the details of the program remain classified. An unacknowledged SAP (or USAP) is made known only to authorized persons, including members of the appropriate committees of the United States Congress. Waived SAPs are a subset of unacknowledged SAPs in the Department of Defense. These SAPs are exempt by statutory authority of the Secretary of Defense from most reporting requirements and, within the legislative branch, the only persons who are required to be informed of said SAPs are the chairpersons and ranking committee members of the Senate Appropriations Committee, Senate Armed Services Committee, House Appropriations Committee, and the House Armed Services Committee.[3]
There are three categories of SAPs within the Department of Defense:[4]
Acquisition SAPs (AQ-SAPs), which protect the "research, development, testing, modification, and evaluation or procurement" of new systems;
Intelligence SAPs (IN-SAPs), which protect the "planning and execution of especially sensitive intelligence or CI units or operations";
Operations and Support SAPs (OS-SAPs), which protect the "planning, execution, and support" of sensitive military activities.
Only the Director of National Intelligence may create IN-SAPs. Sensitive Compartmented Information (SCI) control systems may be the most well-known intelligence SAPs. The treatment of SCI is singular among SAPs, and it seems there is some disagreement within the government as to whether or not SCI is a SAP. Defense Department sources usually state that it is,[5] and at least one publication refers to a separate SCI-SAP category alongside the three listed above.[6] The Intelligence Community, drawing on the DNI's statutory responsibility to protect intelligence sources and methods, finds a legal basis for SCI separate from that of SAPs, and consequently consider SCI and SAPs separate instances of the more general controlled access program.[7]
Marking
SAP documents require special marking to indicate their status. The words SPECIAL ACCESS REQUIRED, followed by the program nickname or codeword, are placed in the document's banner line. Abbreviations may be used for either element. Portion markings use SAR and the program's abbreviation. For example, a secret SAP with the nickname MEDIAN BELL would be marked SECRETSPECIAL ACCESS REQUIRED-MEDIAN BELL. Portions would be marked (SSAR-MB). [8] Multiple SAPs are separated by slashes. Compartments within SAPs may be denoted by a hyphen, and are listed alphanumerically. Subcompartments are separated by spaces, and are also listed alphanumerically. Markings do not show the hierarchy beyond the sub-compartment level. Sub-sub-compartments are listed in the same manner as sub-compartments.[9] A more complex banner line with multiple SAPs and subcompartments might read TOP SECRET//SAR-MB/SC-RF 1532-RG A691 D722.[10]
Older documents used different standard for marking. The banner line might read SECRETMEDIAN BELLSPECIAL ACCESS REQUIRED, and the portion marking would read (S//MB).[11] Other variations move the special access warning to a second line, which would read MEDIAN BELL Special Control and Access Required (SCAR) Use Only or some other phrase directed by the program security instructions.[12]
Examples
The following national or international SAPs, unless otherwise noted, are identified in 32 CFR 154.17:
Sensitive Compartmented Information (SCI), national intelligence information concerning sources and methods which is protected by control systems defined by the Director of National Intelligence. Note that SCI markings are separate from those of other SAPs.
Single Integrated Operational Plan-Extremely Sensitive Information (SIOP-ESI, replaced by NC2-ESI), the national plan for nuclear war. Note that SIOP-ESI was listed among non-IC dissemination control markings on classified documents, not with other SAPs.
Presidential support activities
Nuclear Weapon Personnel Reliability Program
Chemical Personnel Reliability Program[13]
Access to North Atlantic Treaty Organization classified information at the staff level
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jul 11, 2013 - 01:58am PT
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Joe, why don't you stop hijacking this thread with disinformation and boring comments and put in a job application where you can follow your dream
NSA recruitment drive goes horribly wrong
Staff from the National Security Agency got more than they bargained for when they attempted to recruit students to their organization earlier this week …
Bim Adewunmi
guardian.co.uk, Friday 5 July 2013 08.15 EDT
On Tuesday, the National Security Agency called at the University of Wisconsin on a recruitment drive.
Attending the session was Madiha R Tahir, a journalist studying a language course at the university. She asked the squirming recruiters a few uncomfortable questions about the activities of NSA: which countries the agency considers to be "adversaries", and if being a good liar is a qualification for getting a job at the NSA.
She has posted a recording of the session on Soundcloud, which you can hear above, and posted a rough transcript on her blog, The Mob and the Multitude. Here are some highlights.
The session begins ...
Tahir: "Do you consider Germany and the countries that the NSA has been spying upon to be adversaries, or are you, right now, not speaking the truth?"
Recruiter 1: "You can define adversary as 'enemy' and, clearly, Germany is not our enemy. But would we have foreign national interests from an intelligence perspective on what's going on across the globe? Yeah, we do."
Tahir: "So by 'adversaries', you actually mean anybody and everybody. There is nobody, then, by your definition that is not an adversary. Is that correct?"
Recruiter 1: "That is not correct."
Recruiter 2: "… for us, our business is apolitical, OK? We do not generate the intelligence requirements. They are levied on us ... We might use the word 'target'."
Tahir: "I'm just surprised that for language analysts, you're incredibly imprecise with your language. And it just doesn't seem to be clear."
Later ...
Tahir: "... this is a recruiting session and you are telling us things that aren't true. And we also know that the NSA took down brochures and factsheets after the Snowden revelations because those factsheets also had severe inaccuracies and untruths in them, right? So how are we supposed to believe what you're saying?"
Even later ...
Tahir: "I think the question here is do you actually think about the ramifications of the work that you do, which is deeply problematic, or do you just dress up in costumes and get drunk?" [A reference to an earlier comment the recruiter made about NSA employees working hard and going to the bar to do karaoke.]
Recruiter 2: "... reporting the info in the right context is so important because the consequences of bad political decisions by our policymakers is something we all suffer from."
Unnamed female student: "And people suffer from the misinformation that you pass along so you should take responsibility as well."
Later still ...
Male student: "General Alexander [head of the NSA] also lied in front of Congress."
Recruiter 1: "I don't believe that he did."
Male student: "Probably because access to the Guardian is restricted on the Department of Defence's computers. I am sure they don't encourage people like you to actually think about these things. Thank God for a man like Edward Snowden who your organisation is now part of a manhunt trying to track down, trying to put him in a little hole somewhere for the rest of his life. Thank God they exist."
And finally ...
Recruiter 2: "This job isn't for everybody, you know ..."
Tahir: "So is this job for liars? Is this what you're saying? Because, clearly, you're not able to give us forthright answers. I mean, given the way the NSA has behaved, given the fact that we've been lied to as Americans, given the fact that factsheets have been pulled down because they clearly had untruths in them, given the fact that Clapper and Alexander lied to Congress – is that a qualification for being in the NSA? Do you have to be a good liar?"
Recruiter 1: I don't believe the NSA is telling complete lies. And I do believe that you know, I mean people can, you can read a lot of different things that are, um, portrayed as fact and that doesn't make them fact just because they're in newspapers."
Unnamed female student: "Or intelligence reports."
Recruiter 1: "That's not really our purpose here today and I think if you're not interested in that ... there are people here who are probably interested in a language career."
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jul 11, 2013 - 02:07am PT
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http://www.boozallen.com/media-center/what-happening-at-booz-allen/details/why-the-private-sector-is-important-for-cybersecurity
Why the Private Sector is Important for Cybersecurity
Posted by Mike McConnell on July 10, 2013
Mike McConnell
Vice Chairman
Last week, I had the privilege of participating in important panel discussions during the 2013 Aspen Ideas Festival around the cyber threat to American infrastructure and national security. Recent events have generated debate in this country about national security – and that’s a healthy thing. I’ve been saying for many years that there are ways to protect privacy while improving security, and a national debate helps us better understand the requirements and tradeoffs.
Just as the conversation about cybersecurity has evolved over the past couple years to its current state – so has the threat. Information technology, although a benefit to all of us who depend on mobile devices and the Internet everywhere, has introduced an increased level of vulnerability that’s unprecedented. I laid out for the audience at the Ideas Festival my thoughts on the resulting security challenges that we now face and some options for addressing them.
First, today there is a real threat of cyber warfare; malware attack tools are putting the security of our intellectual property and national infrastructure (electrical grid, banking, transportation systems) at risk, and the threat of nation state vs. nation state cyber warfare looms. Yet the nature of this warfare has changed because, for example, it might not be in the interest of one nation to disrupt the U.S. money supply if it depends on this supply. So in this sense, certain circumstances offer a different level of deterrence.
What really worries me, though, is the fact that there are thousands of malware attack tools available and, sooner or later, they will be leaked and/or sold on the black market. This would give an extremist group – who is not deterred by things like a dependence on the U.S. financial system – the opportunity to attack our critical infrastructure and debilitate this country and its critical infrastructure.
The U.S. government plays an essential role in addressing these threats, but a great strength comes from its partnership with the private sector. I’m convinced we must continue to acknowledge the needs and value of private industry to help overcome the challenges and counter the threats, which are more likely motivated by political, social and economic conditions.
As a nation, we’ve done a pretty good job at understanding our attackers, but to stay ahead, we must out-innovate them. Free market competition has a way of creating innovative products, services, and ideas because of the economic incentive. Only the best ideas win the economic competition; just ask Apple. Without continued input and collaboration from the private sector, the government runs a big risk of losing innovation needed to stay ahead of our cyber adversaries.
Increasingly, some cyber adversaries see the value of the free market, too – they let others do the work that they will later steal. Public reports have specifically cited China and Russia for this practice. We cannot stifle innovation and creativity, but we do need to protect it so that U.S. businesses continue to thrive, and that’s another reason for the government and private industry to work together.
My hope is that the current debate will result in a better understanding of this point, and spur leaders in the government and the private sector to examine more closely ways to balance privacy and security and to take advantage of every resource our nation has to fight this growing, constantly evolving cyber threat. We need to move quickly because “sooner or later” is sooner than we think.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jul 11, 2013 - 02:23am PT
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Obama recently said: I'm just going to go along with all these jackasses because I don't want to end up like JFK did.
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froodish
Social climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 11, 2013 - 02:53am PT
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jghedge keeps posting a (selective) quote from Snowden, here's the full quote for context:
GLENN GREENWALD: If your motive had been to harm the United States and help its enemies, or if your motive had been personal material gain, were there things that you could have done with these documents to advance those goals that you didn’t end up doing?
EDWARD SNOWDEN: Absolutely. I mean, anybody in the positions of access with the technical capabilities that I had could, you know, suck out secrets, pass them on the open market to Russia. You know, they always have an open door, as we do. I had access to, you know, the full rosters of everyone working at the NSA, the entire intelligence community, and undercover assets all around the world, the locations of every station we have, what their missions are and so forth. If I had just wanted to harm the U.S., you know, that—you could shut down the surveillance system in an afternoon. But that’s not my intention. And I think, for anyone making that argument, they need to think, if they were in my position, and, you know, you live a privileged life—you’re living in Hawaii, in Paradise, and making a ton of money—what would it take to make you leave everything behind?
The greatest fear that I have regarding the outcome for America of these disclosures is that nothing will change. People will see in the media all of these disclosures. They’ll know the length that the government is going to grant themselves powers, unilaterally, to create greater control over American society and global society, but they won’t be willing to take the risks necessary to stand up and fight to change things, to force their representatives to actually take a stand in their interests. And the months ahead, the years ahead, it’s only going to get worse, until eventually there will be a time where policies will change, because the only thing that restricts the activities of the surveillance state are policy. Even our agreements with other sovereign governments, we consider that to be a stipulation of policy rather than a stipulation of law. And because of that, a new leader will be elected, they’ll flip the switch, say that because of the crisis, because of the dangers that we face in the world, you know, some new and unpredicted threat, we need more authority, we need more power, and there will be nothing the people can do at that point to oppose it, and it’ll be turnkey tyranny.
Full transcript:
http://www.democracynow.org/2013/6/10/youre_being_watched_edward_snowden_emerges
Also, +1 to DMT for clear thinking and boiling things down to the essential.
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