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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jan 12, 2013 - 08:49pm PT
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John, I just run away from people trying to covert me to their religion, even a really nebulous one that lets you define a higher power anyway you want, so with all respect that approach is a massive turn off. Athiests are not people who haven't spent time thinking about religion or the meaning of life, they just came to different conclusions, and their beliefs are just as much a part of their identities as others.
Another controversial remark I would like to make, is that marijuana has nothing whatsoever to do with alcohol, and using it should not make you return to drinking. In fact I think its a reasonable substitute for people trying to quit booze.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jan 12, 2013 - 09:39pm PT
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If you quit drinking booze and switch to another drug its one step ahead 2 steps back. if you are already a stoner and you quit drinking but keep smoking pot you have made a huge step in the right direction but you are still only half way there.....
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Jan 13, 2013 - 01:16am PT
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Talking about the "pros and cons" of the "marijuana maintenance program" could fill a whole new thread. I don't smoke, but I don't knock those that do.
One thing to remember as well, is that when AA was founded, US society was much different then it is now. Religion was a much larger force then in everyday life, so it's only natural that the program would have been focused on that then.
It's up to each of us to determine what works. At the base of it, the decision to stop drinking and stay stopped has to happen within the person. Anything beyond that is simply a means to an end.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jan 14, 2013 - 06:48am PT
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Actually it is really fckin simple. If you quit one drug and switch to annother there is no progress. ZERO, Zilch, Nada..
If you already do a bunch of drugs and you quit one of them you have made some progress but you ain't there yet.
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slodog
Trad climber
ontario canada
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Jan 14, 2013 - 10:35am PT
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my 2 cents-12.5 years sober one day at a time,AA taught me how to live without drugs or alcohol.will power never worked for me as it was my will to drink.i still cant walk on water but my life is 100x better than it was-and i'd surely be dead without AA.i still cant climb worth sh#t-but i'm living life,going places and doing things.i feel bad when i hear of and meet people who cant accept their powerlessness,i waisted alot of life trying to will myself into better living only to find myself at the same place again and again with the four horsemen of despair at my side.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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Jan 14, 2013 - 10:55am PT
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Actually it is really fckin simple. If you quit one drug and switch to annother there is no progress. ZERO, Zilch, Nada..
What about the people who begin acting out sexually in sobriety? There is a reason (in AA) they say "The men with the men, the women with the women" and it's not to foster same-sex intimate partnerships.... There was another slogan I heard, always from guys ironically, and always when they didn't know a woman was listening - "get them on their back before they're on their feet."
I remember finding out one of the playboy types had scooped up my first sponsee within a week of her arrival. He told her to "keep it a secret because the women would look down on her for not following the suggestions." He made it seem like she would be ostricized and told she wouldn't stay sober if she didn't follow the suggestions that some AA'ers were so strict they were practically fundamentalists. He had a history of this behavior which only came out after my sponsee told me what was going on, and I went to some of the men in the group about it. A lot of "this type" is kept hush-hush in the rooms. THAT is why The men with the men, the women with the women.
As for pot - I know beyond the shadow of a doubt, that it would take away my sobriety. NOT that I would drink due to it, but - I smoked pot all day, every day, from the age of 14 to 21. The only time I was not stoned was if there was no pot to be had, and that was fairly infrequently. On those days, I could absolutely feel crankiness and discontent. Even THEN I knew that, at least for me, Marijuana had an addictive component. It may have been mental, but it was there.
I truly got a second chance at life when I got sober. My soul had been shattered at an extremely early age - way before I ever had a drink or drug. I lived within myself, in a shell, It was very comfortable actually. I still have parts of me that are stuck inside, and may be I will never be free. It is not comfortable, any more. I try to work through, and am saddened at even writing that, but just saying "I won't be limited by that anymore" isn't the key that opens the door.
But for me - to pick up a smoke of pot, one celebratory toast at a party, one one night stand with someone I have no interest in other than getting laid, and I give up the gift of life that I found at the grand old age of 36. Half my life, most likely, spent in fear and hiding, Risk going back? No thank you!
But I ALSO believe that EACH person should be allowed to define sobriety for themselves. And I can define who I want to associate with. I will rope up with people who smoke, and drink - even during climbs! I would date a guy who smoked pot - occasionally, or drinks, occasionally, but my eyes would be open. One person's "occasionally" might be my "oh, my frigging god, you can't function without it." And I would NOT sponsor a woman who was smoking pot, or actively acting out with sex, food, stealing or what have you. I even told one I couldn't sponsor her because she was a drama addict(and yes, she WAS!).
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 16, 2013 - 08:38am PT
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The last few weeks have been truly eye-opening for me. I have learned so much. I'm finding Al-Anon to be a huge help.
Now if only the addict in my life could see some of the things I'm seeing...
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slodog
Trad climber
ontario canada
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Jan 16, 2013 - 09:47am PT
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no one in aa can tell anyone what to think or do about anything-although many may try to push their will on you.remember these are rooms full of people learning howw to live-ie-they are human.keep an open mind-take what you find useful and leave the rest.going to aa is not joining a cult with set "rules" of conduct,it is simply somewhere where people who are alcoholic are helping each other stay sober,one of those ways to stay sober is by helping others stay sober[the 12th step].I was very put off early on by those that would either imply or directly declare what I"must do""must beleive etc."but thats not how it works.the steps are suggestions-you are not required to do anything.if you are alcoholic-in aa you'll find other alcoholics who are trying to stay sober.do yourself a favour-keep an open mind and read the bigbook.you never know,it might save your life.it did mine.
eventually I beleive,for the alcoholic it comes down to this-die,go insane,go to prison or go to AA.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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Jan 16, 2013 - 10:54am PT
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Dirtbag- Glad you found some help via Al-Anon. Many AA'ers do that program too, after they have gotten steady with sobriety. Like I said, it was very helpful for me in dealing with that dysfunctional work relationship I had. And it is useful for me nearly every day, including here on Supertopo!
Keeping the focus on myself- what a powerful concept!
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 16, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
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At one time I had enough 30 days chips to encirle the planet.
At one time I watched a stunningly beautiful and quiet woman collect a 24hr "desire" chip so many times I lost count.
I wanted to say the right thing, but I couldn't.
She kept coming back though.
I've often wondered what became of her.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jan 16, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
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John, I just run away from people trying to covert me to their religion, even a really nebulous one that lets you define a higher power anyway you want, so with all respect that approach is a massive turn off. Athiests are not people who haven't spent time thinking about religion or the meaning of life, they just came to different conclusions, and their beliefs are just as much a part of their identities as others.
There are plenty of atheists in AA. The question is: What are you holding onto which you feel people are trying to "convert" you away from? What part of you needs an adversary to push off of.
AA is not for everyone, but it is especially for those like me who need to "quite fighting anything and anybody." There's too much ritiousness, blind willpower, and aggression hooked up to this, the Royal Road to the Next Drink.
JL
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Woody the Beaver
Trad climber
Soldier, Idaho
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Jan 16, 2013 - 03:39pm PT
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+1 for what JL says. I'm a totally secular guy, and I never figured people in AA were trying to convert me to some religion or other. I was, and still am, grateful to the meetings for the chance for me to STFU for a bit and listen to some wise, funny and somewhat dinged-up people talk about what their experience was like. When I went in, I didn't feel like my way of doing things was working all that well, so why not listen? I heard a lot of neat stuff. That was 10+ years ago. I still don't climb gud.
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Plaidman
Trad climber
South Slope of Mt. Tabor, Portland, Oregon, USA
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Jan 16, 2013 - 07:41pm PT
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I just keep it simple. My higher power has morphed over the years. It's easy now. I don't try to define. I just live. Let others have opinions and let them spin. I am more myself than I have ever been and more at peace with all others. Even my x-wife.
I like the Beatles with the refrain: Let it be
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Michelle
Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
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Jan 16, 2013 - 08:37pm PT
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So today is Day 1. it's time. the cost is just too high and there are things (my sanity, peace of mind and emotional balance) I desperatly want to maintain. I cannot live a graceful and loving life the way I've been. I hurt other people that I care about and this makes me deeply sad.
I'm grateful for this thread. thanks for letting me share.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jan 16, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
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Right on.
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Leggs
Sport climber
Home away from Home
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Jan 16, 2013 - 09:02pm PT
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Support to you, Michelle. I've been there... quitting has done wonders to my Life.
Allen Carr has a great book on the subject if you need additional support...
"Allen Carr's Easy Way to Control Alcohol"
~peace, Leggs
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jan 16, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
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Good on you Michelle. That was about as succinct and well expressed as it gets. You've good your eyes wide open! The best of everything for you!
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Michelle
Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
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Jan 16, 2013 - 10:31pm PT
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thanks folks. I'm struggling right now with mindfully and objectively looking at myself and how my behaviour. accepting the ugly parts of me is just no fun. I hurt myself and people that care about me way too many times and like I said, the cost is just not worth it. I've been sort of cruising along and living an unauthentic life. I want to be a shining, loving light that the people around me get nourished from but I'm afraid of being that person. one thing in my favor is that I am stubborn as hell.
on the God topic. I just don't know. I've been casting my pain out to something out there, seeking guidance. no burning buahes but its good mindfullness practice.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jan 16, 2013 - 10:50pm PT
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Way to go Michelle. We all had the speed wobble at first but they don't last forever - easy to say, hard to believe if you're just hanging on.
Per the higher power thing - an imagined metaphorical crutch is just one way to configure it. The mistake is in believing that God MUST be this or nothing else. Most of the people I know who seem to radiate the charmed connection with and apparently are hard wired into that most nebulous higher power vibe cannot quantify or explain it and insist the trying to do so is just another adventure in spinning in the toilet. The trick, I believe, is to get that power to work in your favor, or put differently, to somehow align ourself with that power, which is a behavioral, not a cognitive process. Remember the motto: Knowledge availed us nothing. Not something, but nothing at all. It's very counterintuitive to a mind spinner like me.
But I've seen miracles . . .
Again, hang in there Michelle. You have all of us at your back - of that you may be sure.
JL
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Michelle
Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
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Jan 16, 2013 - 11:48pm PT
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mostly I approach things in a Zen sort of way. I'm a strong advocate of personal responsibility and that I am totally responsible for the choices I make. sometimes, like now, the image in the mirror is ugly. avoidance only makes it worse. In a way, I feel sort of free and awake. I've been snoozing at the wheel. I hope that someday someone may find my story as usefull as the stories of others have helped me.
I've been around on ST for a while and while I like to make fun of it, I've met some awesome people and made alot of e-friend that are valuable. its nice not to be alone :)
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