Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
sempervirens
climber
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2018 - 08:11am PT
|
any constellation of humans can cause great things and great damage
Exactly!
Instead, these fools here always point to their brainwashed bias as the faults.
Brainwashed modern ignorant fools .......
More nonsense. I explained it several times. Any humans can cause great damage. Agreed. No argument there. Are we good so far? But, religion is unique in that it demands unquestioned blind faith. You must obey or suffer the consequences. Not all religions are the same, no argument there. Still with me? But they all have the blind faith requirement. If you say they are not religions if they demand blind faith, then that leaves out the major religions. And our disagreement is one of definition of terms. That is why I stated a definition of religion months ago when I engaged in this thread.
You mention no flaw in my argument and instead resort to logical fallacies: the ad hominem attacks, straw men arguments, and apples to oranges comparisons.
Largo, can you please explain logical fallacies to Paul and Werner.
|
|
sempervirens
climber
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2018 - 08:22am PT
|
Point is, the aggression and power hunger and impulse to dominate existed BEFORE the doctrine to let those impulses rip "in the name of God." Such people are simply like that. Religion is simply an excuse to exercise all of their basest impulses in the name of God.
Yes, religion is an excuse for this. The blind faith requirement makes it all possible. A ton of blame should be ascribed to religion then. No argument of the pre-existing impulses. So now we're arguing about the definition of "cause", "efficient cause", "causal relationship".
Take away blind religious fervor and much atrocity would be prevented. By definition of "cause", the blind faith is cause.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2018 - 08:49am PT
|
The blind faith requirement makes it all possible.
You're a brainwashed nut.
There's no blind faith requirement.
If there is then it's NOT religion but masqueraded as such.
The first thing my teacher said is a blind faith follower is not wanted.
He also said the atheist is not as dangerous as a blind faith religious follower.
In the Bhagavadgita the whole shebang was explained to Arjuna on the battlefield of kurukshetra.
Arjuna was asked to decide for himself as to action he should take then, (think for yourself + free will) ......
|
|
sempervirens
climber
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2018 - 09:37am PT
|
Wouldn't that would mean Christianity is not religion? Is that your position?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2018 - 12:35pm PT
|
Quit asking me sh!t you know nothing about and test it yourself.
Otherwise, you are just a blind faith hypocrite yourself .....
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2018 - 01:19pm PT
|
By definition of "cause", the blind faith is cause.
The way you have it, blind faith has the power, in and of itself, to transform otherwise sane, peaceable people into ruthless killers, al la Isis. What you would find is that your Isis killers were psychopaths BEFORE they ever read any doctrine
That much said, if you get someone with runaway aggression and no empathy, gnarly religious fervor can fan the subject into a beast. But it cannot CREATE the beast in the first instance. That's all I'm saying.
Recall the homophobic many who swore that gays had to be put down or contained lest they cause the dissolution of hertero marriage. That is, if the public recognized/legitimized the gay life style and gay marriage, it would perforce turn otherwise hetero subjects into serial sodomites, or push fence sitters straight into Bruce's bedroom.
The gray area is that any fanatical group can push people with tendencies in that direction straight into action, so of course the radical arm of most any outfit is reason for concern. But the fact is, there are outliers and nutters associated with most ever group, and painting the ENTIRE group with that brush is all or nothing thinking.
|
|
sempervirens
climber
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2018 - 03:13pm PT
|
The way you have it, blind faith has the power, in and of itself, to transform otherwise sane, peaceable people into ruthless killers, al la Isis
Yes, it can transform. Isn't it possible for otherwise sane people to be transformed? If yes, then why can't blind faith transform? Remember, we're talking about blind faith in an important matter, religion. Are people transformed at all by religion? Some claim to be. What if you teach children they must believe the teacher, and repeat that for years. Then the teacher says its time for the child to become a suicide bomber. From child to bomber, that's transformation.
Blind faith that it will snow all winter might transform someone into an obsessed skier. But religion carries more weight than skiing, right.
My examples fit the definition of cause. I looked it up in the good book - Oxford.
"Create the beast in the first place". Hmmm, that is another matter.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2018 - 05:19pm PT
|
sempervirens blind faith thinks he's gonna figure it all out academically.
He looked it up in the dictionary ......
|
|
sempervirens
climber
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2018 - 06:46pm PT
|
Recall the homophobic many who swore that gays had to be put down or contained lest they cause the dissolution of hertero marriage. That is, if the public recognized/legitimized the gay life style and gay marriage, it would perforce turn otherwise hetero subjects into serial sodomites, or push fence sitters straight into Bruce's bedroom.
The gray area is that any fanatical group can push people with tendencies in that direction straight into action, so of course the radical arm of most any outfit is reason for concern. But the fact is, there are outliers and nutters associated with most ever group, and painting the ENTIRE group with that brush is all or nothing thinking.
Yeah, it's stupid to think homosexuality would turn us all gay. No argument there. But if people are convinced that they must follow a doctrine and that doctrine required gay sex, well? Notice, "if they are convinced...". It's a poor example for your argument because religion did convince people to hold the outlandish beliefs you mention.
I agree with the 2nd paragraph . And I'm not painting the ENTIRE group of religious people as radicals or nutters. I'm painting religion.
Werner, this discussion is not about me.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2018 - 07:04pm PT
|
"The children have obtained what their parents and grandparents longed for—greater freedom, greater material welfare, a juster society; but the old ills are forgotten, and the children face new problems, brought about by the very solutions of the old ones, and these, even if they can in turn be solved, generate new situations, and with them new requirements—and so on, forever—and unpredictably." -Isiah Berlin
...
I think you would find a shocking number of them were not psychopaths before hand. But you hang out with killers you become a killer.
and if you hang out with fundamentalists (yes, there is such a type) you become a fundamentalist (esp if you're third world or its equivalent w no modern education).
...
What you would find is that your Isis killers were psychopaths BEFORE they ever read any doctrine
you just make this stuff up, like WB and Trump, don't you? lol
100th question from me to you that you don't ever answer: Have you ever read the Quran? Do you get the fact that sectors of Afghan and Iraq, even Iran and Turkey, are CONSIDERABLY MORE conservative (read literal fundamentalist) then their Western counterpart? Will you ever take the word "fundamentalist" seriously and try to understand it in ABrahamic theological context sincerely?
Truly, if the West and the world at large weren't wasting trillions (let alone lives) on all these many related issues, your replies on the Abrahamic religions and their core characteristics and concerns would be pure comedy!
If there is one principle that comes to mind to describe you - that at least comes across in your posts - it's this: You can't teach an old dog new tricks. No offense.
Those were just rheorical questions, never mind them.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2018 - 07:29pm PT
|
On a happy note...
"Ever since the Enlightenment and the invention of science, we’ve managed to create a tiny bit more than we’ve destroyed each year. But that few percent positive difference is compounded over decades into what we might call civilization. . . . [Progress] is a self-cloaking action seen only in retrospect. Which is why I tell people that my great optimism of the future is rooted in history." -Kevin Kelly
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2018 - 10:41pm PT
|
HFCS as usual plays the same old worn out creaking melody of his hate for Abrahamic and Koran religion due to his asylum of illusions all while hiding behind the coattails of
Sam Harris, Pinker and the rest of his Youtube brainwashed crew because HFCS really knows nothing of his very own except stirring his material beaker ......
|
|
Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
|
|
|
Feb 28, 2018 - 05:45am PT
|
I remember when I was a kid I’d get really excited about a particular song. It would excite my mind and spirit in ways that I’d find fascinating. Then I’d play it over and over again until I killed all the fun and fascination in it and the same song I’d joyously imbibed now grated and I couldn’t stand it anymore.
Chronic limbic excitation resulting in excitotoxicity, limbic kindling, and transneuronal degeneration....
....in other words, it ended up getting on my nerves.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
Feb 28, 2018 - 07:52am PT
|
Interesting observation on longevity and life expectancy...
"We tend to think that we approach death by one year for every year we age, but during the twentieth century, the average person approached death by just seven months for every year they aged.” -Johan Norberg
So, extrapolating then, imagine...
Approaching death or even old age... by just a week or two for every year you age. Until it's negated. I don't know, how desirable would that be?
Perhaps this is our grandchildren's future.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Feb 28, 2018 - 07:58am PT
|
Unfortunately....the extraordinary increases in longevity in the last century have come to a screeching halt. The chikdhood obesity epedemic doesn't bode well for our grandchildren. Get your kids outside and out of the gameroom!
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Feb 28, 2018 - 08:56am PT
|
What you would find is that your Isis killers were psychopaths BEFORE they ever read any doctrine
you just make this stuff up, like WB and Trump, don't you? lol
---
Again, Fruity can never be accused of nuanced thinking.
The issue here is the idea that external forces can transform someone's basic nature. That is, if you hang around with killers, you will become one, and that the group ethos and whatever doctrine is associated with it are sufficient "causes" for this transformation.
Here we see the danger of trying to apply a physical causal model onto the behavior of human groups, where there are far more moving parts, and a "cause," and the ability to transform or change is not only taken as matter of course, it is ascribed to outside powers entirely, to such things as "blind faith," etc.
If we look at our own process, and our own lives, we can easily see that achieving radical or even incremental change in our fundamental nature is possible, but probably the hardest and most confounding task there is. The various ways psychology uses to categorize basic or inborn personality types - and how accurate these are - attests to this. In terms of character transformation, we are always up against the way we are made.
This is made even more complex when we introduce conditioning, and consider this in light of changing or transforming one's basic nature. Certainly we can learn to be a certain way, or acquire new skills and habits. But again, we are always up against our inborn tendencies and aptitudes.
For example, I grew up playing music, which was my first love. After many years of practice, instruction, state honor bands and playing in countless groups and bands, including with very skilled professionals, I realized that there was no way of me getting to the next level because I simply didn't have it in me. I could hang out with and play with and rehearse with Grammy caliber musicians but they couldn't transform me into one of their own because by nature, I wasn't, and no amount of practice could change that.
This and other reasons is why ascribing the "cause" of psychopathic killers to a collective group think ("blind faith," etc.) is such a slippery slope. We come into the world with certain specific tendencies and aptitudes, and these basic tendencies will find play in the world no matter our conditioning and how blindly we believe in this or that.
Point is, we could theoretically wipe out all vestige of radical Islam, or fundamental religion, etc., and aggressive, criminally-inclined psychopaths would still be reigning terror on the world. We would just find another "cause" to which we could ascribe their behavior.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Feb 28, 2018 - 09:04am PT
|
^^^^^ All that is well and good but the effect of repeated affirmations, with or without a
‘support group’, is undeniable, even if it won’t get you all the way to Carnegie Hall. But it
will get you to Paradise and the 54 virgins, so to speak.
|
|
Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
|
|
|
Feb 28, 2018 - 10:15am PT
|
Trojan, Anchises' son, the descent of Avernus is easy.
All night long, all day, the doors of Hades stand open.
But to retrace the path, to come up to the sweet air of heaven,
That is labour indeed. (Aeneid 6.126-129.)
|
|
Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
|
|
|
Feb 28, 2018 - 10:16am PT
|
Reilly, I'm not sure which day, but as time passes by... or runs... or flows... or comes... or turns... or returns...
|
|
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
|
|
|
Feb 28, 2018 - 11:12am PT
|
So interesting that Michelangelo chose to portray Sibyls like the Cumaean on the Sistine Chapel ceiling. Syncretic approaches belie the claims of those that say all religion is so close minded. As well all those neoplatonic figures of M.'s that seem almost irrelevant but say so much.
Largo, can you please explain logical fallacies to Paul and Werner.
Oh puleeze.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!