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sempervirens
climber
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Feb 25, 2018 - 11:53am PT
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Ok, I'll bite, ha, ha.
You fool materialistic people are always insane.......
Nice example of kindness. How 'bout those of us who are not materialistic, you think we're insane too?
Go be kind and quit slaughtering everything in sight you hypocrites.
What are you saying is being slaughtered? The religious argument?
You can't even take one breath without God to begin with ......
How do you know? Nevertheless, if that is true, my arguments still stand. Read them carefully and you'll see that.
Are you trolling or do you honestly think you're making sense?
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Feb 26, 2018 - 07:26am PT
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 26, 2018 - 10:44am PT
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[youtube=[youtube=[youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-wWBGo6a2w]]]
Watch this and get a sense of the importance of religious thought.
You understand what a straw man argument is, right?
Let's see, is that when you make some bogus generalization against religion and use it as a point of certainty in an argument?
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sempervirens
climber
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Feb 26, 2018 - 12:07pm PT
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Let's see, is that when you make some bogus generalization against religion and use it as a point of certainty in an argument?
No, that is not a straw man argument. An example of a straw man argument:
...languishing in the myopic limitations of understanding existence only through a physical reality that stops cold at the threshold of human consciousness.
I can discard religion without languishing or stopping at the threshold of consciousness. Therefore, your argument opposing my position does not support your disagreement with me. It's a straw man because you made it up rather than attack what I actually have said. Now you see. I've explained it before. You can find it on google too, of course.
You haven't been able to show that my opinion on religion is bogus, you simply state so, then create a straw man.
Have you made any progress on answering the many questions I asked you?
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Feb 26, 2018 - 12:14pm PT
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Thanks, HFCS. Pretty neat!
;>)
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 26, 2018 - 12:17pm PT
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Then it follows that you must give credit or blame for the other things religions has explained and promoted, and continues to do. Namely, the atrocities that you simply avoid.
The real "strawman" is your assumption that "atrocities" have a causal relationship with religion. Your whole argument is based on that false assumption which you continue to claim as a reality. Try watching the video I posted then make an argument as to the negative nature of religious thought.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 26, 2018 - 12:56pm PT
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God isn't and never is an idea or a belief.
God is an absolute 100% fact and 100% scientifically proven every time.
The gross materialists use imperfect measurements from their self-made ultimately defective instruments and observations from their own defective senses.
God is measured by one's own soul which is beyond the purview of the material realm and is part parcel of God himself with all the qualities but not the quantity.
The foolish gross materialists will just waste their time with no results arguing endlessly their gross material nonsense until they come to their foolish conclusion they are blind as bats to the spiritual realm.
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sempervirens
climber
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Feb 26, 2018 - 12:57pm PT
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No, that is not a straw man argument, you see, because it's where we actually disagree. I say there is a causal relationship, and you say there is not.
Another straw man is when you argue that religion promotes kindness. It's a straw man because I have no disagreement with that, and I've said so clearly. That does not relieve religion of guilt for all the atrocities. Since that kindness is available without religion, as you've said, then we can drop religion without losing. Wisdom, and other positive traits are also available without religion. Are we finally clear on the concept of the straw man?
It's not an assumption because I gave real-life examples of the atrocities (genocides, rape, war, etc.) that certain, though not all, religions have directly supported that illustrate my position. Why then do I disparage ALL religion, you might ask? It's because ALL religion demands blind faith. If you can convince people that they must believe unquestionably, then you can demand that they allow, condone, and commit the atrocities. In many examples religion commands people to rape and fight. A lot of history there, right? That is causal. If the believers believe, then they must obey or risk consequences of damnation, ostracization, even physical attack. Isn't that causal? Dropping religion won't eliminate all atrocities, it would eliminate those atrocities that it directly promoted.
Another example is Wayne LaPierre of the NRA invoking God and religion in his speech last week at the CPAC. He is deliberately using God to convince people of the need for guns, conservatism, and culture war. When he invokes God millions of people are motivated to act, aren't they? There's no logical connection between God and owning a gun, but says there is and the believers act.
Now if you were to define religion as not having blind faith, as Werner did, I'd have a different opinion. But the problem with that is it leaves out the major religions of the world and you have been including them all along as points of discussion during this argument.
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sempervirens
climber
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Feb 26, 2018 - 01:19pm PT
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God isn't and never is an idea or a belief.
God is an absolute 100% fact and 100% scientifically proven every time.
The gross materialists use imperfect measurements from their self-made ultimately defective instruments and observations from their own defective senses.
God is measured by one's own soul which is beyond the purview of the material realm and is part parcel of God himself with all the qualities but not the quantity.
The foolish gross materialists will just waste their time with no results arguing endlessly their gross material nonsense until they come to their foolish conclusion they are blind as bats to the spiritual realm.
Just to be clear: I haven't been arguing over the existence or definition of God. I'm arguing about religion. I mentioned the dictionary earlier because here on internet we're using words so it's best to have an authority of meaning. Otherwise we can't know what each other is saying. And then it's no fun to argue. However you define gross materialist, you have no way of knowing if I fit that definition. I haven't been arguing about the spiritual realm or materialism or consciousness either.
Werner, Maybe you're not referring to me but if you are you've also fallen victim of the straw man argument. You resort to some weak tactics.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 26, 2018 - 01:27pm PT
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Honestly this is exhausting. I don't think you understand what a strawman argument is and I certainly don't think you understand or realize the wisdom that religious thought has given to humanity.
Human action is human action and atrocities are largely the affect of political and territorial needs/ desires. Look what atrocities secular belief has imposed in the 20th century, good grief. The best that humanity has to offer may very well be in the wisdom of religious thought, there are those that believe that science itself is a product of the structure of that thought. Ignoring that wisdom just seems silly.
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sempervirens
climber
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Feb 26, 2018 - 01:46pm PT
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Read my post again. I'm not ignoring wisdom and agree it would be silly to do so. I do understand a straw man. I've explained it. What part do you disagree with?
You don't think I understand but you can't say why? that doesn't make sense. You're taking shots at me but not at my argument.
I've shown the causation. What part do you take issue with?
Human action is human action and atrocities are largely the affect of political and territorial needs/ desires and in many of those atrocities religion was used as a tool to convince the masses, as I have shown.
Look what atrocities secular belief has imposed in the 20th century, good grief.
Of course it has. No argument there. Another straw man, 'cause we don't disagree and it doesn't address the disagreement we're having. Politics and territory can also cause atrocities. but we're discussing religion.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 26, 2018 - 01:50pm PT
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sempervirens
You're a gross materialists 100% for sure.
Just as I am ........
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 26, 2018 - 03:37pm PT
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I've shown the causation.
The daffiest thing of them all is dragging causal language and machine logic into a discussion about spirituality and wisdom, like we're dealing with a formula or equation by which people "get" wise owing to X, Y, and Z. How else would you, right? Leapin' algorithms. Where's the freaking input?
In my view, any constellation of humans can cause great things and great damage. We can explore atomic power and so forth and also drop bombs on ourselves. We can seek "God," and distort that seeking into a crusade that kills millions.
Such swings are not owing strictly to an efficient "cause" we can trace back to this or that institution, rather to things going on in our basic nature, things that run amok without conscious intervention.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 26, 2018 - 04:06pm PT
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any constellation of humans can cause great things and great damage
Exactly!
Instead, these fools here always point to their brainwashed bias as the faults.
Brainwashed modern ignorant fools .......
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sempervirens
climber
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Feb 26, 2018 - 05:24pm PT
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Largo, the causal relationship between religion and atrocity was brought up by Paul, quoted below. I didn't drag it in. But I did give several real examples. Read them and my explanations. Otherwise, you're commenting about being daft without addressing my argument.
I've been discussing religion. Your comment doesn't include the context of the discussion. Wisdom was also brought up by Paul alleging that I'd miss out on it, or discard it without religion. I wouldn't discard wisdom even if it came from George W Bush (hey, it's possible, ha, ha).
The rest of your comment I've already addressed several times. But somehow people keep repeating it as a refutation of my argument while failing to address my argument. I don't take issue with the rest of your comments, except that I assign blame and cause to religion when it commands people to kill, fight, etc. I've also explained why religion is unique when compared to other impetus to commit the atrocities. There's the freakin' input.
The real "strawman" is your assumption that "atrocities" have a causal relationship with religion. Your whole argument is based on that false assumption which you continue to claim as a reality.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Feb 26, 2018 - 06:49pm PT
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Feb 26, 2018 - 06:52pm PT
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“Sharpen your wisdom, distinguish principle and its opposite in the world, learn the good and bad of all things, experience all the arts and accomplishments and their various Ways, and act in a way so that you will not be taken in by anyone. This is the heart of the wisdom of the martial arts.”
~ Miyamoto Musashi
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 27, 2018 - 08:01am PT
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Understand. No problem. It's good, though I agree: long.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 27, 2018 - 08:11am PT
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Super wrote:
But somehow people keep repeating it as a refutation of my argument while failing to address my argument. I don't take issue with the rest of your comments, except that I assign blame and cause to religion when it commands people to kill, fight, etc.
Super, it seems to me that your argument is looking for an efficient "cause" for the atrocities done in the name of religion. That is, the Christian Crusades, or presently - with the cult of psychopaths calling themselves Isis - True Believers are doing heinous things to people believing they have a divine mandate to do so. Simply put, their atrocities are the will or God, or Allah, or Cocoa Joe, accordingly. In that sense, you ascribe the "cause" of said atrocities to the institution of religion, across the board, whereby being religious "creates" the impulses to cut people down with swords, burn people alive, etc.
My point is that this is a simplistic view. Religious groups and aggressive doctrine can stoke aggression, but not create it. Take the aggression and lust for power and domination out of the equation and there are no atrocities. While it is certainly true that Muslims seem to have doctrine that supports such ludicrous things like Caliphates.
By using the language of Caliph and Caliphate, ISIS is attempting to establish itself as the leader of a worldwide Muslim movement and mobilize a broad coalition of support by erasing national boundaries.
What you have behind the whole mess are a bunch of power hungry men who will kill you with no remorse who simply found a religious credo that justified their primitive impulses. The same brand of men have cropped up throughout history and across the globe and they always found a convenient doctrine to justify being cold blooded killers in order to dominate and have their way.
Point is, the aggression and power hunger and impulse to dominate existed BEFORE the doctrine to let those impulses rip "in the name of God." Such people (psychopaths) are made like that. Religion is merely an excuse to exercise all of their basest impulses in the name of God.
While it is true that some religions are more prone to foster aggression and crimes against humanity, the root cause is not religion, or blind faith, per se, but primitive drives. And blind faith didn't create those drives. There are millions of Muslims who consider Isis a band of crazy and ruthless maniacs.
But this is a nuanced bag to unpack, and for my money, doctrine based religion is and has always been a mixed bag of shadow and light - because it is fleshed out with us humans, not saints.
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