The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

Wars have historically been predicated on politics not religious ideas. There are exceptions of course but should we become apolitical because politics can lead to war and degradation? I would not disparage atheism because of the unimaginable cruelties of godless nations. Sounds like you want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

You were arguing that for kindness God is needed.

Just as religious institutions deserve praise when they pursue humanistic ends, they should not be shielded from criticism when they obstruct those ends.

Science will never be adequate to address the great existential questions of life, death, love, loneliness, loss, honor, cosmic justice, and metaphysical hope.

no sacred truths

The idea of the need to be kind is a vestige of religion that has little to do with the realities (tooth and claw) of existence.

And when someone says I don't need god all I need is to be kind; it begs the questions what is kindness and why kindness anyway?

Paul, you ever wonder if maybe you're on the regressive, retrostitious side of future history on this one?

Regarding theistic morality, Pinker (Ch 23) exposition is pretty devastating. A small sample...

"Not only does this make theistic morality relativistic; it can make it immoral. Invisible gods can command people to slay heretics, infidels, and apostates. And an immaterial soul is unmoved by the earthly incentives that impel us to get along. Contestants over a material resource are usually better off if they split it than fight over it, particularly if they value their own lives on earth. But contestants over a sacred value (like holy land or affirmation of a belief) may not compromise, and if they think their souls are immortal, the loss of their body is no big deal—indeed, it may be a small price to pay for an eternal reward in paradise."

Kindness doesn't need religion and religions don't seem to need kindness.

Inequality is on the rise across the world, but it’s not increasing everywhere at the same pace. In many ways Europe stands out as a positive exception. Despite all the criticism thrown at the EU, it is a global leader in preserving a degree of fairness in the social fabric. This may seem unlikely – Europe is hardly devoid of problems and tensions. Parts of the left depict it as a vehicle for neoliberal economic policies, and parts of the right deride it as an inefficient administrative monster. So how is Europe really doing?

It’s hard to exaggerate the difference between western Europe and the USA when it comes to inequality. In 1980, these blocs of similar population and average income were also similar in income inequality: the top 1% captured around 10% of national income, while the poorest 50% took around 20%.

Things have changed dramatically since then. Today, the top 1% in Europe take 12% of income (in the US, 20%) while the bottom 50% have 22% (in the US, 10%).

.........

Generous welfare states need to be financed, of course. Europe is a patchwork of taxation systems. But overall the continent has been good at protecting progressive taxation – which has not been the case in the US, Britain and also countries such as India, where inequality has mushroomed. Progressive taxation is a proven tool against entrenched privileges at the very top; it also helps finance investment and public expenditure designed to lift income levels at the bottom.

"Sometimes being right condemns you to being in a minority."

Religion defines kindness, explains its complexities rescues us from its misapplication. More importantly, religion extracts order from chaos creating a ground for civilization and from that an ordered society. Religion is the product of tens of thousands of years of observation of human character producing stories insightful into the human psyche that reconcile the individual to the difficulties of existence. In this there is wisdom. Reading biblical stories only literally misses the deeper psychological meaning and wisdom they can communicate.

would not disparage atheism because of the unimaginable cruelties of godless nations.

Unreasonable beliefs need correction but reason alone doesn't suffice. The idea of an enlightenment that supplants all forms of thought except pure reason and that rational forms in and of themselves are our salvation ignores the power of those essentially human drives, drives that would employ pure reason for disastrous purposes as has been witnessed at least three times in the last century. Balance is the difficult key.