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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 22, 2018 - 01:14pm PT
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Unreasonable beliefs need correction but reason alone doesn't suffice. The idea of an enlightenment that supplants all forms of thought except pure reason and that rational forms in and of themselves are our salvation ignores the power of those essentially human drives, drives that would employ pure reason for disastrous purposes as has been witnessed at least three times in the last century. Balance is the difficult key.
The humanities as backwater? Please, there is as much truth in the fictions of Shakespeare as there is in halls of science.
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No God
Mountain climber
MT
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Feb 22, 2018 - 01:37pm PT
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The heart??!! Oh please. It's an imaginary idea fabricated by the mind. Like the soul. If you mean a combination of emotions, logic, and experience, then that is simply chemicals coursing through your body causing reactions and emotions. All this stuff really isn't rocket science, just basic biology. There is so much left to learn about the brain and neurology, I should know, I have a mysterious neurological disease which no one can figure out. We don't understand many mechanisms of the brain yet, but that doesn't mean that there is a god, soul, or magical force of consciousness, which controls it. Ancient peeps thought lightning was the gods, turns out not so much. This is the same thing, but 2000 years later. I like the Sagan quote. People have a need to believe that defies logic and reason. I get it. Death sucks and is scary for most.
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sempervirens
climber
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Feb 22, 2018 - 01:49pm PT
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You are totally clueless about what is in the heart ^^^^^^
You are the one with beliefs.
Reality is not beliefs .......
You're just making stuff up. You cannot know what clues or beliefs I have or don't have. Reality is difficult to define, no argument there. I have asked a lot of questions. Rather than reply to them, you're making judgements about me and changing the subject. Paul is better at changing the subject than you are but he employs the same strategy.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 22, 2018 - 01:59pm PT
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If you mean a combination of emotions, logic, and experience, then that is simply chemicals coursing through your body causing reactions and emotions.
Back to the beginning? OK. Emotions may be caused by chemical reactions in the brain but the experience of those reactions by a self realizing discerning entity, well, that's something else. To say that that experience is nothing more than "simple" biology is simplistic in and of itself.
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No God
Mountain climber
MT
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Feb 22, 2018 - 02:16pm PT
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I don't believe that the experience of the reaction is any different than the reaction itself. Apes and elephants are intelligent and surely have consciousness, but no one talks about that, or thinks of them having a soul and going to heaven. Your view of mind is self-serving to find purpose in an otherwise purposeless existence. I definitely don't think the body is a simple machine, I've studied enough biology to know that. It's vastly complicated, but complicated in the way that there are so many systems, chemicals, and variations of natural structures, that deciphering all of it will take a long time.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 22, 2018 - 02:21pm PT
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No God = No brain
You're clueless as ever and brainwashed as hell too ^^^^^^
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 22, 2018 - 02:21pm PT
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I don't believe that the experience of the reaction is any different than the reaction itself. Apes and elephants are intelligent and surely have consciousness, but no one talks about that, thinks of them having a soul and going to heaven. Your view of mind is self-serving to find purpose in an otherwise purposeless existence.
Ha. And your view of mind is self serving insofar as a purposeless existence precludes responsibility. Watch the video I posted and get back to me.
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No God
Mountain climber
MT
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Feb 22, 2018 - 02:26pm PT
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brainwashed is religion. a fable taught to kids young enough that they don't question it. and they scare the hell out of you with fear tactics, like the republicans. if i'm brainwashed for using logic, facts, and experience, then so be it. I couldn't make it through 2 minutes of that video. I found his style rambling and boring. I studied the bible enough to know it ain't the word of god.
Also I disagree that a purposeless life means no responsibility. We're here and have a responsibility to be kind to others. Total non-sequitor there.
Duck- you think the mind is part of a vast spiritual network. what proof is there for that? do earth worms take part in this system with their simple nervous system? or that a humans only religious thing?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 22, 2018 - 02:34pm PT
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We're here and have a responsibility to be kind to others. Total non-sequitor there.
I get it. It's ok to be an atheist as long as you're a Christian or hold Christian values. The idea of the need to be kind is a vestige of religion that has little to do with the realities (tooth and claw) of existence.
Just what are "advanced studies" in the humanities, I wonder.
I'll bet you do.
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No God
Mountain climber
MT
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Feb 22, 2018 - 02:36pm PT
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I hate Christian values. Gays are less than, etc. Go to hell for jerking off or missing church. Sell your daughter. I don't need the bible to tell me to be kind. People were kind to each other long before 2000 years ago. Actually being kind to each other can be beneficial in an evolutionary way for social creatures like humans.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 22, 2018 - 02:40pm PT
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Duck- you think the mind is part of a vast spiritual network
You're an idiot for sure and you project your own nonsense in your tiny head as you can't for the life of you see what's in front of you.
I never said such any such horsesh!t that the mind is part of a vast spiritual network.
I've always said the mind is subtle material in nature.
Again you really are a simpleton idiot and coward too boot.
No God you have NO Brain .....
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No God
Mountain climber
MT
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Feb 22, 2018 - 03:00pm PT
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subtle material sounds like a bunch of made up bs. according to you the mind cannot exist without god, so how is there not some network connecting brains to god? "superior energies" also sounds like hogwash.
me thinks you doth protest too much, duck. your defensiveness and belittling imply that you may actually be nervous about your position, to me. or vast insecurity. you certainly aren't capable of a real debate, just insults. but i have the small brain. sure. keeping believing in magic fairy dust. i bet i'm a lot more educated than you are. also, I possess the ability to question beliefs, whether my own or someone elses. It's called thinking. try it some time.
Also, I'm a coward??! Why? because I don't use my real name and address with cell on a forum. yeah.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 22, 2018 - 03:32pm PT
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subtle material sounds like a bunch of made up bs. according to you the mind cannot exist without god, so how is there not some network connecting brains to god? "superior energies" also sounds like hogwash.
It's all BS, No God. How's that for subtlety. Thing is, life doesn't all unfold in Triple Forte.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 22, 2018 - 04:21pm PT
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There are ample reasons to be kind that have no religious source.
Don't disagree with that. However, there are ample self-serving reasons to be mean that are mediated by religious demands for kindness. Historically those demands have evolved as cultural artifacts that have then been synthesized by religion as in the ten commandments. But I don't see kindness as the default state of humanity. As well kindness is a double edge sword as in the Grizzly mother will tear you apart as an act of kindness toward the cubs she imagines are in danger. Parsing what is kind and what isn't is difficult and for much of history was left in the hands of religion. So when someone makes the argument that religious thought is irrelevant to morality or "kindness" and kindness is a natural human proclivity, I would say look at the historical record. Humanity is capable of unimaginable cruelty much of which has been justified as "kindness." Kindness to the Aryan race, for instance or kindness to ideological comrades. Though the source of human kindness of the best kind may come from natural human instinct it has been the historical processes of religious practice that have parsed that kindness into a subtle and refined moral contract. And when someone says I don't need god all I need is to be kind; it begs the questions what is kindness and why kindness anyway?
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sempervirens
climber
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Feb 22, 2018 - 04:40pm PT
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Don't disagree with that. However, there are ample self-serving reasons to be mean that are mediated by religious demands for kindness. Historically those demands have evolved as cultural artifacts that have then been synthesized by religion as in the ten commandments. But I don't see kindness as the default state of humanity. As well kindness is a double edge sword as in the Grizzly mother will tear you apart as an act of kindness toward the cubs she imagines are in danger. Parsing what is kind and what isn't is difficult and for much of history was left in the hands of religion. So when someone makes the argument that religious thought is irrelevant to morality or "kindness" and kindness is a natural human proclivity, I would say look at the historical record. Humanity is capable of unimaginable cruelty much of which has been justified as "kindness." Kindness to the Aryan race, for instance or kindness to ideological comrades. Though the source of human kindness of the best kind may come from natural human instinct it has been the historical processes of religious practice that have parsed that kindness into a subtle and refined moral contract. And when someone says I don't need god all I need is to be kind; it begs the questions what is kindness and why kindness anyway?
Back at the beginning, as you said up thread. Indeed. Yes, look at the historical record and see what religion has parsed into not-so-subtle contracts. There are self-serving reasons to be mean that are directly supported even mandated by religious demands. Wars, genocide, rape. These unimaginable cruelties were perpetrated and justified by religion. So at best its a wash, the good or evil of religion, that is. Of course, IMO, religion loses and I've explained why several times.
If we choose to be kind, then we do so with our own definition of kindness just as we might decide what is a healthy diet or a positive attitude, etc. Those are debatable opinions. Why? is a more pertinent question. I know it causes pain to hurt someone and therefore I choose not to do so. God is not needed for that decision. If one does need God to be kind (however kind is defined) then are atheists unable to be kind? Or are they kind because God exists even though they don't know it?
Back at the beginning, have we ever left?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 22, 2018 - 04:48pm PT
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Back at the beginning, as you said up thread. Indeed. Yes, look at the historical record and see what religion has parsed into not-so-subtle contracts. There are self-serving reasons to be mean that are directly supported even mandated by religious demands. Wars, genocide, rape. These unimaginable cruelties were perpetrated and justified by religion.
Wars have historically been predicated on politics not religious ideas. There are exceptions of course but should we become apolitical because politics can lead to war and degradation? I would not disparage atheism because of the unimaginable cruelties of godless nations. Sounds like you want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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Feb 22, 2018 - 05:30pm PT
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For a reasonable proof of the hundreds of millions of years of the historical record for "kindness" that has absolutely nothing to do with religion, look no further than reptile and mammalian life on this planet.
It is fair enough to say that from birth on it is the female of the species including ours who, without depending on knowing in our sense they are being kind, protects and nurtures the young. The success of species evolution virtually depends on female "kindness", -hard wired so to speak
pick at it, find reasons to criticize this contention if so inclined - but physical and cultural evolutionists and anthropologists would tend to agree (if not, my college majors had it wrong)
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