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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Mar 30, 2008 - 09:39pm PT
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Colors are right for Shuteye but unless the focal length on the lens is long then the height seems unreasonable. Also, a lot of Shuteye is more textured than this image.
What am I saying, there is orange granite everywhere!
But Sean seems well set for gaining/hanging on to sponsors!
Edit: WB confirmed before I could post. Thanks WB.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Mar 30, 2008 - 09:43pm PT
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Rincon,
Aside from the rap bolting Half Dome thing, what's wrong with him offering to guide on an FA?
FA's were guided for a long time in the Alps, so it's hardly against tradition.
And very few clients, I imagine would be willing to pay to sit around while someone drills a whole bunch of bolts. That's about as exciting as watching paint dry. So I'd tend to think that's not what he had in mind.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Mar 30, 2008 - 09:51pm PT
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"'m not against sport climbs or rap bolting, they have their places.
But rap bolting a big wall? Especially Half Dome should never be done.
Leave the big walls alone. If the south face of Half Dome can't be climbed ground up then don't bother. Leave it.
If Half Dome can't be be climbed from the ground up for a hundred years then so be it. Leave it alone.
If the South face of Half Dome has only 4 routes to the top and they are all horrendous death routes, then so be it. Respect!
Respect. Climbing is not suburbia, although that's where the modern trend is going.
I've always wanted to free climb the south face of Half Dome, but I never thought I was good enough, so I walked on past and respected that great masterpiece standing there."
Werner spoke with true wisdom. This is the only "con" argument that really stuck to me.
To say that Walt and Dave did something so everyone should adhere to their ethics is lunacy. Don't compare climbers to climbers. SOmeday down the road Southern Belle will be free soloed. Maybe in a hundred years, but what does that say of Walt? What a tool, adding a few bolts to it when it clearly doesn't need them!
I agree it should have been done on lead, however, if they added just as many bolts on lead, and had the line stray 3 different directions because it is impossible to scope from below, is that "better?" This, in my opinion, is not *bad* style. It's not great, but that depends on your definition of the word.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Mar 30, 2008 - 09:52pm PT
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Matt M wondered,
"Why is rapping down a route to ensure you can link pitches free and with minimal bolting WORSE than climbing a route ground up,..."
Good enough question that is often asked. Simply put, I would say it's not better or worse - they are two different activities. Is rappeling worse then climbing?
Rapping (going down) is not climbing (going up). Like Dirty Kenny pointed out rather well, there is only so much terrain that exists like the South Face of Half Dome. That terrain should be respected and left for true climbers (people that go up) and not taken away by top-down, rap bolting, pseudo climbers from future athletes who will be able to actually advance the art of free climbing and go up the damn thing.
They should have left it alone and gone back the next year ground up and tried again....and again... until they could or could not make it.
Now it's an unfortunate botch job - like the cable route.
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Loomis
climber
Lat/Lon: 35.64 -117.66
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Mar 30, 2008 - 09:58pm PT
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once again: It matters that it doesn't matter.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:00pm PT
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I don't know about a botch job John, Sean is a pretty damn good climber and don't believe he botches climbs up.
Now if I remember correctly .... I believe it was Clevenger who wanted to rap bolt Bachar Yerian before you did it John. He thought it would never go from the ground up. He was ready to do that, and you beat him to it. A bit of history.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:02pm PT
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Loomis
Your mantra is nihilistic.
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ec
climber
ca
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:04pm PT
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Thx John. edit: 'botch job is a bit harsh, don't you think?
Scott what does matter that now there is no "next great problem" for that section of stone. It has been stolen from the future of possibilities...
Stolen dreams...
 ec
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:11pm PT
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Apparently, some people have not read the article (Rock & Ice #155). It is not a 5.13 slab climb. It takes the arch just left of the Harding-Rowell route, with eight 5.12a liebacking pitches and one 5.13a. After a 30' downclimb and 5.11 traverse left, they hit a 60' blank headwall where they quit their ground up ascent.
On rappel from above, they found a way to connect from the top of the blank headwall (where they put a 60' aid bolt ladder). On the 1000' upper slab the article mentions two 5.11 slab pitches and one 5.10c.
In the article, Robinson says "The specter that haunts us is of a dead end, of striking out up a promising line only to have it blank out. Then our folly will be marked forever by a line of bolts to nowhere."
What a copout.
The holes are forever (although patching can make the holes very hard to find), but the bolts do not have to be. The $1 stainless wedge bolts are "forever" (hard to pull, although you can drill the hole deeper in advance, and then pound them into the hole under the surface and patch), but if you use removable stainless ones like the $6.25 Powers Powerbolt (5-piece) or the $5.20 Fixe Triplex, you can easily remove them if you are not happy to stop your route to the high point. Or it could be done with 1/4" on lead (like Klaus and Minerals do), and then replaced with stainless 3/8" shortly after (or pulled if not happy with the route to the high point).
Risking that a route might "blank out" is what ground up climbing is all about. If it blanks out and you stop the route at that point, why is that bad?
Jones could have ended the route at the base of the blank headwall, and he would have had an all free ground up hard route. But apparently he felt it would not be a "success" (my words, not his or Robinson's) unless it went to the top, by whatever means necessary?
The real reason(s) for the rap inspection/bolting are probably:
avoiding the time and effort of drilling from stance or hooks (I'm not sure if there is much which is hookable up there)
Jones didn't want to put in the 60' aid bolt ladder unless he thought it would go free above
In Hetch Hetchy, Tim and I did a new route which went up several pitches of cracks and partway up a corner. At our high point, the corner got very thin and looked like it wouldn't go free. I traversed out right to an arete and slab. It looked like it might go, but I didn't want to take the time and effort to bolt it on lead. So I did a hard clean aid pitch up the corner instead. A few months later, we came back, and Sean Jones had rap bolted the arete (5.12a) and slab to make the lower half of his route "Resurrection". If that's the kind of adventure he wants to have, that is OK with me, under certain conditions. I didn't exactly see anybody else lining up to bolt that on lead, and it is his time and effort to decide how to use. If it was a route which other people had been attempting from the ground up, that would be a problem.
[Edit to add, plus many other edits done above over the past hour]
One of the other things that bothered me in the article is when Robinson said "Sean Jones ... a guy with 90 first ascents in Yosemite." Quantity of first ascents means nothing, especially if they are rap bolted; those can be done very quickly. What matters is quality. (Well, quantity does matter in terms of future ground up adventures lost, but that is a hard tradeoff to judge. My standard is to try to limit myself to a low number of good routes, done by whatever style, but of course I have done some bad/junk ones...) Maybe Robinson was trying to compensate for the fact that Jones' topos are mostly unpublished (maybe partly because Globe Pequot Press hasn't published Don Reid's new edition), so maybe few have heard of him.
Thanks, coz, for speaking your mind on this. The article has been out for months, but it seems that nobody has been willing to address this (myself included).
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:11pm PT
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WB - Just for the record, it was actually Christian Griffith who wanted to rap bolt the BY. When he told me that, I went up there the next day and put the first bolt in.
By botch job, I mean we will now never know if a more skilled climber/climbing team could have climbed up the confusing, difficult, hard-to-read face.
Somebody got robbed of a great first ASCENT. The funny thing is they robbed themselves first (if they indeed could have ever succeeded).
Edit: Maybe 'botch job' is not the best description. I think Clint's use of the term 'copout' is more accurate, now that I think about it.
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Loomis
climber
Lat/Lon: 35.64 -117.66
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:22pm PT
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The point is, that we can all post our feelings about this and not change that it has been done. And my opinion does not change it either.
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adventurous one
Trad climber
reno nev.
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:24pm PT
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It is not about getting to the top. It is about the adventure getting to the top.
Even if this was the most amazing free route on the planet, with plenty of ass puckering adventure, one must ask what such a precedent may lead to and what it may encourage others, with less skill and respect, to do with ever less desirable results. Half Dome is not your neighborhood choss pile sport crag. Every climable line does not need to be found.
Imo, much better to have a handful of mistakes that go "nowhere" than to see a "Gold Rush" of big wall rap routes that ruin the sense of adventure for all.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:24pm PT
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All of this posturing about future climbers seems a bit odd. That wall is hard to get to and has seen hardly any action in the last 40 years.
On the other hand, El Cap, which is obvious and easily accessible, has had the crap beat out of it for 50 years. Should the Salathe team have refused to climb because someone in 2030 might be able to free solo the route?
If we take this to extremes, we've basically got gritstone rules. Only nuts and cams allowed. Maybe taped hooks and cam hooks. Anyone who has done anything else on El Cap has let down future generations?
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:30pm PT
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Must all routes "go somewhere?" Are the Geek Tower routes less than perfect since they do not finish "at the top?"
Part of the excitement of doing a FA is not knowing what comes next. Did the Vikings or Old Chris C. take a beeline to North America? I bet they wandered a bit before getting to where they wanted to be.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:36pm PT
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stevep - Forget Gritstone rules. We already have Yosemite "rules"... on sight, ground up. If you fail, you go down - if you make it, you're on top.
Yosemite had the cleanest, purest, most balls out standards on the planet...
Now we got "trad climbers" who top rope things 69 times before they do a 1st "ASCENT".
Golf is now more bad ass than trad climbing!
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:47pm PT
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Wow, well I guess I misremembered details from the article. So what ya'll are saying is that this route is entirely new terrain? And you are throwing a hissy fit merely because it wasn't established in the style YOU would have established it? As much respect as I have for many of you as climbers (I hate to say this), I'm glad I'm not any of your girlfriends--which is to say, nobody likes a jealous partner. There's a route out there somewhere called "Shut Up and Climb." Go send it.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:56pm PT
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I understand that John, and I understand the stylistic distinction. It certainly does take bigger balls to do things ground up, and more smarts to get it right. Maybe to be truly honest about it, we should go back to only allowing yoyoing and no hanging.
But is a ground up ascent with tons of holes or lots of pins in a crack more acceptable than a pre-rapped ascent that results in less damage to the rock? I certainly would rather see something rap bolted with 10 good bolts in 50 meters than 50 meters of rivits every 5 ft. Ground up shouldn't be the only consideration.
I'm not saying I approve or disapprove of DR and Sean's ascent. I don't have enough info.
Just that I don't think ground-up should be the only consideration. And also that if one is trying to say that we should somehow "save" that wall for future generations, you open up a can of worms about all kinds of previous ascents in more travelled parts of Yosemite.
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adventurous one
Trad climber
reno nev.
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Mar 30, 2008 - 10:56pm PT
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The biggest issue here is not that they stole the first "true" fa from themselves or others. The big issue is what sort of future impacts are we going to see from writing an article about it in such an influntial medium as Rock and Ice. Someday are our revered big walls going to look like a local grid bolted sport crag? I am sure this is not the, well meaning, intention of the fa team. However, for a climbing community this is a well needed thread topic.
Edit- btw, I thourghly enjoyed the article and am not putting anyone down. Putting up any route on the backside of Half Dome is impressive. I am sure it is an intimidating line above my ability. I just hope this does not inspire a rush of others to go out rappeling big walls looking to put up rap routes everywhere because they don't want to put in the effort of ground up routes.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Mar 30, 2008 - 11:00pm PT
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billygoat, Shut Up and Climb and Shut the Fvck Up and Climb are at Cave rock and are now closed. Drat.
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Matt M
Trad climber
Tacoma, WA (Temp in San Antonio)
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Mar 30, 2008 - 11:14pm PT
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Seems to me that the ENTIRE history of Yosemite climbing most definitely was focused on getting to the top. First to summit Higher Cathedral, first to climb the NWFHD, first to climb the El Cap etc etc. They didn't rap but they sure used a lot of OTHER means to reach the summit. Pins and bolt ladders, penjis etc. As time progressed they changed their styles but an ENTIRE route was almost always the goal. It's been that way for climbing for eons.
I for one HATE when I see a "route to nowhere" in the Yosemite guides. The idea that a ground up, dead end route is preferable to a continuous line to the summit is wrong to me. Hey - Good for you, ground up and on lead. But that aesthetic of pushing a route to the summit is missing. That is a part of the climb that all future parties will miss. They will marvel at the boldness and purity of the route and then marvel as to why the FA party didn't go THERE instead so they could go to the top!
Yes the route was not of the "purest style" but to burn it at the stake as an abomination smacks of a time in Yosemite history that many of my elder mentors remember with disdain. A time when you were with the Catholic Church or a heretic.
If it were rap bolted top to bottom with no thought given to quality style or ethics I'd be right there with you doing the burning. This seems to be no where close and as such, I'm not about to burn my Protestant climbing companion.
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