Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Hootervillian
climber
the Hooterville World-Guardian
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2006 - 12:19pm PT
|
i think the urine questions have merit. one very insidious byproduct in urine is acetone. levels seem to increase as a result of, among other things, the processing of alcohol.
don't have to look further than a men's bathroom in a bar to see the possible cumulative negative effects on nylon and stiching over time.
|
|
hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2006 - 12:39pm PT
|
Wow, sounds like I need to get a new harness, something that has been nagging at the back of my brain for a few years now.
I told myslef no more new gear unless I climb more. Well, both of my harness are over 15 years old. Time to trash them and get a new one. Same goes for some slings that have been hanging around for who knows how long!
That rope I have been reluctant to retire? Getting cut up for long lines for the horse soon. It's 10 years old.
I have never used my belay loop on my harness. I guess I started climbing before they were common, and just never liked it. I always tied in to the waist belt and leg loops. I use the belay loop for swapping belay devices when I have to pass a knot in a rope. That's about it.
I know clipping a biner through both the waist belt and legs loops for belaying and rapelling is problematic, given to cross loading of the biner. I use the biggest pearabiner I can find, and do replace those as soon as I see signs of wear. My horse has some fancy bucket hangers.
Scared myself on rapell once relating to cross loading. I tend to keep an eye on my set up as I'm descending, but this time had started to rapell with the biner cross-loaded. I watched it flex alarmingly, stopped at a good spot and straightened it out. It was a locker, and it was locked, but still.
I've learned alot from this thread, thanks Patrick!
And it sucks we had to loose such a good man to learn these lessons.
|
|
johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2006 - 01:13pm PT
|
Dispose of from date of purchase or date of manufacturing?
With respect to the problem of ageing nylon, dyneema and such, it would be nice if the manufacturers clearly dated all the material componets in the products sold. I know some of this suff sits around for a couple of years before it gets sold. Further back in the thread it was suggested to replace dyneema slings (and on cams) every couple of years. How many are close to that old when purchased?
|
|
GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2006 - 01:38pm PT
|
Manufacture date is of little help. You would need date coding on the raw materials. The webbing could sit at the mill for a couple of years before our vendors get it.
Remember, stiffness, color fading are a voice of the material.
|
|
cbear
Trad climber
somewhere past the 1st pitch
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2006 - 01:44pm PT
|
what about a prusik (or other friction knot). When rappeling I always back up my belay with a prusik and attach it to my leg loop. I wouldn't want to hang out for long with just this, but it would be a backup in case the belay loop broke (or i lost hold of the rope, was knocked unconscious, etc)
|
|
GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2006 - 01:52pm PT
|
Cbear-
I have not tried hanging by just a single leg loop attachment. I would expect it could work under just body weight and if the HARNESS IS NOT WORN OUT. You are using a weak part of the harness, but better than nothing. Prusik to the leg loop is always a good idea.
I do not usualy do the back up even though I think of it everytime I rappel.
|
|
johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2006 - 01:54pm PT
|
"Manufacture date is of little help. You would need date coding on the raw materials. The webbing could sit at the mill for a couple of years before our vendors get it. "
Exactly, thats why I specified,
"if the manufacturers clearly dated all the material componets "
|
|
GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2006 - 02:02pm PT
|
Johnboy-
Sorry, a bit of confusion. What I am saying is BLACK DIAMOND etc. could not accuratly date the age of the material (webbing). That would need to be done by the braiding company making the webbing.
|
|
TradIsGood
Fun-loving climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2006 - 02:14pm PT
|
"Manufacture date is of little help. You would need date coding on the raw materials. The webbing could sit at the mill for a couple of years before our vendors get it. "
Could... Do you have any actual experience to suggest that this ever happens in practice? Sure would be very bad business (uncompetitive) for a company to make and store inventory.
JIT manufacturing matured in the 80s.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2006 - 02:23pm PT
|
It happens for sure SadDad... now back into your hole.
|
|
GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2006 - 02:26pm PT
|
Webbing is made in large runs. Braiders need to be set up and it takes time. Date coding exist in other braided product, but not our webbing.
If you are really interested in some of this, the military spec and research for product like the 1" tubular webbing and other webbing is availiabe to the public. The military did alot of good research on this and created a standard that has proven the test of time until in question today.
-I am not military.-
Hate to see us reinvent the wheel. If the concern is so great then perhaps we need to reinvent webbing.
If you time stamp a woven date color code into webbing, the price of gear will sky rocket, and availiability will plummet. The mortality rate of our sport is pretty good. The event that is bring this up is really about product that was worn out... How did they know it was worn out, the product showed proper signs of being worn out.
Sounds to me like the webbing is doing its job. We the climbers need to do our job to. The limit was pushed just too far, and it saddens me as much as everyone else. The answer is to use gear in good condition.
|
|
graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2006 - 03:28pm PT
|
The manufacturing date is fine IMO. If you batch test the slings when there’re made and reference the raw material lots and they meet the requirements. There’s your baseline you can add whatever hypothetical time limit you want to that.
I for one would be curious what some old slings would test out at as someone mentioned earlier, especially if they still looked serviceable.
Anyone out there offering a sewn reslinging service for cams and such?
Edit: Just want to clarify above I mean date of sewn sling.
|
|
GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2006 - 03:35pm PT
|
I could test any old slings anybody wanted to toss. as for reslinging, I could do that too. Perhaps its time to offer the service.
I would expect the manufaturer of your cam might offer reslinging.
Edit: perhaps FISH he has been pretty good to the Super Topo crowd.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2006 - 03:43pm PT
|
Even date of manufacture of the webbing itself would be of little use. You'd need to have date of manufacture of individual nylon source spools used to weave the webbing if the objective was to know how old the nylon (or other material) was. Date of manufacture of the final product should suffice and assumption will have to be made about how long such source materials linger in the supply chain before being used. But in this day of ISO, TQM, Six sigma, and WCM everyone in the supply chain should be pushing back on their suppliers for as much traceability data as possible.
|
|
graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2006 - 04:20pm PT
|
GhoulweJ,
Curious on what your business is and what kind of equipment you’re operating for bartacking.
|
|
GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2006 - 04:23pm PT
|
Graham: Brother B430
You mentioned you have some old slings you are tossing. I would be happy to break 'em. Could give you photo or video of failure if you like.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2006 - 04:28pm PT
|
Between the dating of every fibre from its point of creation and forming regulatory bodies to oversee all nylon products, here is a simple way around all of it......
DON'T USE OLD SHIITY LOOKING WEBBING
Sure, there could be acid on your brand new belay donut and you died, or there could be a nylon eating virus that just mutated its hungry asss self onto your quickdraw.....
but, if your gear looks to be in good shape, is not outrageously old, is not crusty and has not been contaminated with some weird gasses or chemicals, chances are pretty good you will live through your next rappel.
Have any questions about your gear: buy new stuff.
Not worried about it?: good for you and monitor your gear for obvious wear signs.
Or you could just subscribe to the "numbers up" theory, that says that no matter what you do, when it is your time to go, all the new and shiny gear, helmets, autoblocks, 1/2" bolts, and various safety measures will not save you. When your number is up, it's up.... "don't be late...."
|
|
GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2006 - 04:33pm PT
|
"don't be late" LOL
|
|
graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2006 - 04:50pm PT
|
Numbers up Theory - always proves itself in the end.
Sounds good, I’ll contact you soon. (GhoulweJ)
|
|
10b4me
Trad climber
California
|
|
|
Oct 26, 2006 - 05:08pm PT
|
Anyone out there offering a sewn reslinging service for cams and such?
good question. I was looking at some of my older cams the other day, and was wondering about changing the webbing.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!