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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 11, 2015 - 12:06pm PT
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And what if the selection criteria all but eliminate females for the same reasons?
we can speculate, but perhaps it would be better to wait for the full report... what if there were women who were selected?
what if there were training programs that improved the performance of women and increased their selection?
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 11, 2015 - 12:09pm PT
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In wartime, some women have unique assets that enable them to do what no man could do. The British Intel Office in NYC had an agent, code name "Cynthia". She seduced a number of French diplomats who were in league with the Nazi's, and gleaned information which saved hundreds, maybe thousands of lives.
On the Eastern front, the Russians lost so many men, they had to make units made up of women, for artillery and anti-aircraft. One unit, the 1077 anti-aircraft regiment, ended up in a suicide mission, trying to slow down the Germans attacking a tank factory. They were given no infantry support; they were just ordered out to the steppe and told to slow them down as long as possible. After three days, all their positions had been overrun and all were dead. The Germans commented that this unit had fought with exceptional valor and bravery; they were shocked to find that most of them were just young girls, barely out of high school.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Sep 11, 2015 - 12:13pm PT
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Derp?
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Sep 11, 2015 - 12:35pm PT
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my point, The Chief, is that the physical training regimes were developed for male soldiers...
As it has for over 150 plus years.
Part of the integration of females into the Combatant roles within the Military planning protocols back in mid 80's (which I was a part of for Flt Dks onboard Carriers) was that there would be NO changes in physical performance standards and physical fitness requirements (except for some very minor tweeking of some exercise's and the manner in which they were performed) that were currently in place. No special accommodations would be made for the integration of females other than berthing and special needs in the local command stores etc.
The senior female leadership in all Services agreed that was a vital requirement so that it would remain an "Equal Performance Force".
Now MrH, you can remove that assumption from your statistical equation.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 11, 2015 - 01:07pm PT
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training to perform is important,
I wasn't saying that the performance standards were or should be different,
I was asking if the training was up to the task of generating soldiers who could perform (which is the purpose of training) and if that training was appropriate for women soldiers (it appears it was not, given the higher rate of injuries)
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Sep 11, 2015 - 01:35pm PT
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I was asking if the training was up to the task of generating soldiers who could perform (which is the purpose of training) and if that training was appropriate for women soldiers (it appears it was not, given the higher rate of injuries)
That is valid and good point EDH. BUT, to do so would invalidate the original standards that were agreed upon back in the mid 80's in order to make it a gender equal fighting force as is required when in an actual combat situation.
I believe you understand that concept that exists in the actual brutal arena of war/combat.
For one to not be equal as the individual they are fighting shoulder to shoulder with only compromises the primary goal of BUD/S, The TEAMS and the other elite SPECWAR training course protocols of TEAM WORK. At BUD/S, and from what I understand also takes place in the GB, DELTA and PJ courses, the exact same standard is adhered to. The training process ultimately results in Team Members that are all equal in overall operational and eq knowledge, physical abilities and tactical thinking as each other. There is no such thing as individualism. No one is better or lesser suited than the other.
That is the primary basic standard requirement and reason why they are called ... SEAL TEAMS.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Sep 11, 2015 - 03:16pm PT
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Warbler said "Pointing to sexual harassment and assaults in the military only highlights another reason why mixed gender troops are problematic. Managing problems like that,"
Mixing the genders is not the reason for the endemic rape and sexual harassment in the military. IMO it is a wide spread lack of respect for women; and then you have that same group doing an internal study of whether women measure up.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Sep 11, 2015 - 03:39pm PT
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I did know a few of them and me and my pardner beat some in two-MAN beach and gym volleyball about the time of these photos.
Anyway, as pertains to this thread, ones that I've talked to said the mental toughness is by far the bigger determinant in making it through the training.
So, could a woman do it? Yeah, but would she want to show off her boobs?
----0
You gotta be kidding me. Those guys are tough. Actually way more than tough.
Two that I know more than a little, suffered mightily without complaining. Well one did bitch to me that he'd gotten a rotten deal on medical treatment.
Well at the beach in the sand it's a lot harder to jump than it is on a wood floor in the gym. Probably get just as many pretty women watching either way though.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Sep 11, 2015 - 04:16pm PT
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What planet are you guys on? On this one there is the pill. No period.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Sep 11, 2015 - 04:23pm PT
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YO... ZBrown!
You a FROG????? Straight up or did you just find them photos at a garage sale in some shoe box.
Cough up the goods. What years, where, who with, etc.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Sep 11, 2015 - 04:29pm PT
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DAMN!!!
I hoped for sure. Well it was hot while it lasted.
BTW ZBrown, wtf is the difference between "gym" and "beach" volleyball when playing on them sandy beaches of the "Strand"?
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Sep 11, 2015 - 04:41pm PT
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What planet are you guys on? On this one there is the pill. No period.
Apparently 'they' monitor blood chem and there can be no foreign substances of any kind, including hormones, so the pill is out. An interesting idea actually, denying women in specific programs birth control...but off topic!
I do find it interesting that the whole period point keeps coming up, as it's a cycle that's not difficult to disrupt.
As I mentioned before, simply having a women's body fat levels below a certain point can stop a woman's period. Aka - the more fit, musclebound, near 0% body fat means no period.
Not that this would apply to the women in SPECOPS, but it's been speculated that quite a female olympic athletes don't get a regular periods, and some don't ever get it until they back off on their rigorous training regimes. A certain level of rigorous physical training can just do that. And that's not even taking into account that stress also can disrupt this cycle.
Given the incredibly aggressive programs that the Chief describes, these women might not even have periods, regular or otherwise.
No pill needed, just balls to the wall crazy physical load. And it sounds like SPECOPS training could qualify. I have no data regarding the women in SPECOPS training, but I know for a fact that monthly bleeds aren't a given for women to push their bodies to extreme levels of physical performance.
But pshaw! all you manly men know that already since you all have collectively known far far more bleeding women than I have!
Thanks for sharing all your opinions, I'm finding y'all very interesting!!
Cheers
LS
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Sep 11, 2015 - 05:31pm PT
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The Chief has 37 posts today...so far - hell it's probably 38 by the time I finish this post... bet he breaks 50 easy.
Edit: I was right - he posted #38 to my Bernie thread while I was posting this. LOL.
The first one was at 12:06AM, then - being the restless troll he is, the next one is at 6:39AM.
http://www.supertopo.com/inc/view_forum.php?cur=20&dcid=PDg9PTU7PSc,&ftr=
He really hits his stride after that, with just enough early breaks to foment hate and still not burn out for the long haul.
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Sep 11, 2015 - 05:32pm PT
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I have no idea, I only have academic knowledge of this phenomena....
I am WAY to addicted to pastry and WAY too lazy to experiment on myself.
But I wouldn't be surprised if it mirrored the scientifically proven male hormonal cycle effecting emotional states known as the Man Period.
Yes boys...it's real and documented. :)
But this is not a discussion about bleeding, it's a discussion about the military! Stop getting distracted!
Cheers
LS
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Sep 11, 2015 - 05:37pm PT
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
Sep 11, 2015 - 05:31pm PT
Chief's got so many posts here today starting at the ..... I bet.... my ass is butthurt..... I need to bring to light that I am still here.... baaaaaaaahawwasaaaawass aaasss aaaaaaaaaaaaaa and wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhha whaaaaaaaaaaawa!!!! Damn it... and Fukk oFF!!! with just enough early breaks to foment true luv and still makes this place fire up... I wish I could.... WTF am I trying to say anyway.... Fukk it!
DUUUUUUUUUUUUDE??? You're just pissed cus I aint buying your Bernie luv.
Now, on a serious note...
ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
Sep 11, 2015 - 05:32pm PT
But this is not a discussion about bleeding, it's a discussion about the military! Stop getting distracted!
I had one of my females come down with a badass yeast/vaginal infection from not changing here "deal" for over 18 hours in the PG (Persian Gulf) heat and humidity of over 100 degs and 90%. She had to get flown off to Germany and stayed over 10 days on full IV meds/anti-biotics etc. She was way fked up when she left the boat and we thought for sure she was done.
Have you Lady S ever been exposed to such an event? My Wife tells me that it can happen and can be fatal.
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c wilmot
climber
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Sep 11, 2015 - 05:54pm PT
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Being largely limited in what I can do because of long term stress related injuries (herniated discs) I wonder what the impact physically will be for women in these kinds of roles. The body can only take so much, and its biology that women have less resistance to these sorts of problems.
It seems lost in the debate.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Sep 11, 2015 - 06:12pm PT
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All minds might be pliable, but all bodies aren't carrying a uterus and breasts around with them.
I would expect that testicles are much more vulnerable than a uterus if you are considering tactical viability in close-range combat. Menstruation might be a little more logistics to deal with, but not much for most roles. I doubt that breasts have posed a major weakness for elite climber women, or for females who want to be warriors.
I skimmed after the first few pages and maybe missed similar posts. But I'd like to see more focus on what I perceive as more likely to be root issues that affect male or female performance:
1) Group dynamics with mixed men/women, where roles we learned as children get in the way of treating the group ahead of the individual. For example, some guys learn to be chivalrous and do things for women, within a context of thinking that women are weaker and need a man's help. These kind of background thoughts, trying to accommodate female members of the group, might get in the way of full delegation of duties, and clearing of one's mind to focus on one's own tasks. In addition, sexual dynamics causes head noises where people might want to help others they care more about look good, or some people might be afraid of looking bad or underperforming in front of someone they are attracted to. This kind of stuff can be very distracting and dangerous at times when total mental focus is required.
2) Societal messages and values that children grow up with. Guys are more often taught to suck it up, not show pain, master their emotions, etc... and girls as they develop are often given more space to feel their emotions and express them in front of others. These stereotypes are far from universal. War requires the ability to put emotions on hold, and that is a skill that is learned through practice and repetition like any other. It takes a lifetime to learn (edit: can be learned very quickly in life/death situations), and kids from dysfunctional families learn it better from an earlier age. While it has other negative consequences in healthy relationships, it can be an advantage in war. It's not an inherently male or female thing, but rather what has been practiced and learned throughout childhood as a reaction to trauma and stress. I would expect that men and women of equivalent combat experience would have on average similar coping skills- assuming that on average the trauma of war forces a level of emotional coping skills and deferral beyond which most people had learned prior to participating in a war.
Considering #2 in isolation, it seems we should not have policies that are gender-specific. Rather, they should focus on desired behaviors and outcomes and test that individuals have the emotional makeup, the will power, the grit to endure what needs to be endured.
Considering #1, simple solution seems like segregation of sexes in tactical units. I know close to nothing about military organization or strategy, but it seems like this would still break down when the tactical units need to interact. What happens when a male unit is ordered to do something that sacrifices another unit when they know that other unit is all females? Do they react to that differently than if the other unit is all males?
These issues are not inherently about female inability or weakness at all. Rather, they are about how individuals cope with the screwed up demands of war in the context of sex. It's hard to be a lover and a fighter.
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Sep 11, 2015 - 06:14pm PT
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No way Chief, though was always paranoid about it because from what I hear it's not pretty. Sounds like what she was dealing with was toxic shock syndrome and everything that goes with it...and it's just that - toxic.
I am in no way similar to the women you've worked with. I've already proven that I make different choices. So not a military girl. I get to carry gloves and wet wipes and even a chocolate pastry when I want to.
But as a complete civilian, from my perspective, a female soldier being hospitalized for Toxic Shock Syndrome isn't that different from a dude soldier being hospitalized for having parasites swim up his wiener, or due to severe trauma to their balls and 'junk'. I will make the allowance that a woman can die from Toxic shock, whereas I hear it takes a LOT for a guy to die from smashed c*#k and balls.
Each gender has gender specific issues that become liabilities in combat situations. As a complete civilian, I would say it comes down to what really matters to the regulating authority. Being susceptible to Toxic Shock syndrome doesn't make a female soldier fail to perform at the necessary standard, just as having sensitive and delicate balls doesn't make a male soldier too vulnerable to be a soldier at the SPECOPS level.
In my civilian bred California hippie mind, what should matter to the regulating authority is that the person, man or woman, can do the job, make the choices, and stand shoulder to shoulder with their team to do what needs to be done.
Meritocracy biotches!
my 2p
Cheers
LS
ps - damn if y'all didn't drag me in way deeper than I intended. I'll blame my experience in an all women's school ;)
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