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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Sep 12, 2013 - 12:27pm PT
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Joe's premise is still false. The fact remains that many non-exceptional climbers established run out climbs near their limit and many more repeated such climbs.
Roger, Robs and Kevin's observations are spot on.
Another false premise proposed by some is that because a person's bouldering accomplishments were significantly higher than the lead climbs they did, that somehow these climbers were leading well below their limit. This is, of course, a false comparison. The most difficult boulder problems you can climb invariably require repeated attempts and working the moves (which sport routes often entail). What is relevant is one's on sight ability... a metric significantly lower than what practicing and training for moves offers.
And (with no disrespect to bold bouldering), for climbers trained in gyms and exposed to sport crags, the mental element of leading has not been equally developed, resulting in climbers who are uncomfortable with even a 20 foot runnout.
Climbing has never been democratic. In its most elemental, it is harsh and unforgiving of even the most minor lapse. Sport, bouldering and trad are all climbing and rewarding. As in life, respect for others and our differences counts for far more than the facile posturing of the absolutist.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Sep 12, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
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Re read my posts. I never said everything should be a sport climb.
The telling truth is that while climbers today are as brave as ever, they don't touch the 30' run out slab museum pieces.
ETA, Sketch
Do you reay think the likes of Honnold are scared of a 20' run out on 5.11? LMAO!
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 12, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
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"I am scared of these routes."
Exactly.
All the routes I was scared of I tried to find people who were good enough to lead them and saked them if they need a belayer to follow them.
I followed and belayed Masters like Rick Accomazzo, Kauk Warrall Bard Largo etc etc etc.
I did Space babbles with Terry from Modesto.
I had to batman the rope at the crux.
Either that or I just stayed home to drool.
Why stay and drool instead of doing cool climbing ......
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 12, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
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And I'm saying that not every FA was for every person, either. Some of them shouldn't have been done in the style they're currently in, and being insisted on being left as.
Fair enough?
Thanks, Joe. That helps greatly. Although Snake Dike isn't a Stonemaster climb, it's the perfect example of what you're talking about. The FA party authorized retro-bolting for that reason.
Do you have specific Stonemaster climbs in mind for similar modification?
John
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 12, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
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Do you really think the likes of Honnold are scared of a 20' run out on 5.11? LMAO!
--
Of course not. And kindly show us where Honnold is complaining about a 5.11 runout. Or any runout. Thaty's the difference between Alex and you. He accepts those runouts as legitimate parts of the game. you, apparently do not. That's fine.
And what "museum pieces" are you referring to, exactly, and what does "museum climb" even mean?
JL
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 12, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
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Can we argue over whether Fires are aid now?
I remember in the early 1970's referring to EB's as "EB Super Cheaters."
;-)
John
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Sep 12, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
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As Sketchy and Largo pointed out, it is really about respecting the level of mental accomplishment, not just difficulty. Reducing the level of mental focus it takes complete a runout at at your limit changes the whole experience of the original ascent and cheapens the mental dischipline it takes to climb at the level.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Sep 12, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
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He isn't complaining about them, but also doesn't do them.... just like the thousands of other Valley area climbers that year after year pass over the run-out slabs for cracks.
Museum climb:
Climbs that aren't done because they either
A) suck (loose rock, sharp, etc) or
B) are contrived run-outs that aren't worth the mental effort and tight shoes for the grade.
Either situation sees few if any subsequent ascents... hence they are in a encased as in a museum to look at but not touch.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Sep 12, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
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Not necessarily, often museum climbs are on really good rock, as in the Valley or the Needles.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 12, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
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Wunch did the FA of catchu on nuts only wall.
I went with Kauk to do the second ascent, I think it was?
Anyways .... Ron led it and I followed and had to grab the rope at the crux to get up it.
I went with Coz again to to do the 3rd ascent.
Again I grabed the rope at the crux to pull up.
The next party to attempt were all saying we've evolved with better gear and we're better climbers now.
They bailed at the crux pitch without trying because they knew they would all die ..... :-)
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Sep 12, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
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W-Rong again.
I'll say it again, still plenty of balls today, since you seem to like that word, just not on run-out 5.11.
Chim-chiminy, I am scared of everything and nothing.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 12, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
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Main stream people entered the climbing world many years later.
A lot of those cockk roaches made up all the rules and laws that were never around originally.
Those stupid cockk roaches were all the first to run like girls to the land managers and cry to make all these modern draconian stupid rules we have now ....
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Sep 12, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
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I am not listing what I find acceptable for myself to have it dissected by this forum.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Sep 12, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
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This morning, out of the futon in the back of the 92 Econoline.
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Fluid
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Sep 12, 2013 - 02:18pm PT
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There's a difference between being fearful and being responsible. Some people have more to lose if they get seriously injured. Yes, I will focus well if I know that, at this spot, if I slip then serious injury is likely. For some, that is acceptable, but for others, it is an idiocy. For example, when other people depend on you. You know, like an adult, not an adolescent boy.
We should be wary to avoid survivor's bias. Those engaged in the conversation are those who have a stake, those not dead, injured, or so turned-off they no longer engage. For that magical group, it's all about risk management and mental toughness, not realizing that it is exactly a clear-eyed assessment of risk that leads the mature to turn away.
Yes, there are now better protected routes. Yes, we can set aside the best rock for boys as a manhood challenge (the early climbs are, of course, usually the best location and rock). We'll just crowd the majority of climbers onto a few trade routes, or some obscure choss that can at least remain chopper-free.
There are many reasons for how a route was originally put up on a given day, many quite arbitrary (fixed gear was expensive? so that determines a route for all time?). Alternately, a route can be thought out, well-constructed, as a work of art designed to last. You can walk up to a public wall and paint the first thing that comes to mind, with whatever materials you have at hand. You can do this for the experience that it gives you yourself. But you can hardly expect all those after you to admire and maintain. If you want that kind of respect, you have to craft carefully and with talent. The alternative is a tyranny of the aged.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Sep 12, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
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I have respect for the legends and the history of the time.
But if I list what I do and did, I would be skewered like a trapped coyote, such is the nature of online anonymity. See your last response to MT as an example.
I am questioning the relevance of some styles of climbing given how little they have been climbed in 40 years.
... and how vehemently they are defended as a paradigm of boldness.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 12, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
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Pat
Those climbs you are talking about were rarely done even back.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
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Haven't read the whole thread, but with talk of runouts has anybody mentioned fall factor?
It ain't just the distance.
Most of my routes don't require great sac, but a few like Full Metal Jockstrap and Babes In Thailand have some 10m fall potential.
But the former has a low fall factor while the latter has a factor 2 (pitch 6), but it is on terrain that is more than a grade easier than the crux (pitch 8).
The runouts are peculiar characteristics of the routes, and it would be a shame to retrobolt them since so many of the others are "safe".
Fall factors are another element of the discussion (too bad so many climbers don't even know what that is,..)
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Sep 12, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
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One thing for sure is that if these run out slabs remain generations after the FAist are long gone, and pretty much every climber is no longer steeped in a long mentorship clanging around with hexes and learning the details of the heroic deeds by his / her predecessors, a better argument than "sac up" is probably going to be necessary.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Sep 12, 2013 - 02:41pm PT
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Before rap bolting was finally accepted, you had to climb ground up, on sight, and protect it if you could. Like Hankster on Southern Belle. I've heard stories about the FA, (the FFA came a short while later) where Schultz and Walt were certainly wishing they could drop their hands and drill. The stances weren't there. That is why it is run out.
Now climbers think bolting the snot out of something is no big deal, and I have to admit, they are right.
I've done very few runout routes where the FA skipped a possible drilling stance on purpose. The rock dictated where you could place bolts. I promise you that on many of the runout routes that I grew up on, everyone who has ever climbed it wishes that there was another bolt stance here or there.
These routes weren't put up to be scary. It was just the lack of stances 99% of the time. If it was really steep, then you had to bolt in on rappel, and that wasn't accepted until the late 80's or so.
Sport climbing has been a tremendous source of new routes. Now pro on overhanging face climbs is no biggie.
I remember driving through Rifle back when there were only a few routes there. After sport climbing finally cemented itself, then Rifle became covered with great and very hard routes. Sport climbing at least tripled the amount of available rock.
Slab climbing is weird if you haven't done it, like many climbers who come out of gyms. Of course they are good enough to do them. They would rather be climbing in a cave, though. Modern hard climbing is like that. Caves are at a premium....
As for Southern Belle, didn't Honnold go do that a few years back and say it was no big deal? That guy is freaking good.
Standards march on, and so it goes.
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