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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 09:00pm PT
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Flat-out best photo of Millis I have ever seen:
Carter photo
and yes folks!
Millis was trad trad trad trad. And a one-of-a-kind in every sense of the word.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
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Check out CF!
He looks like he's about 16:
Carter photo
Cochran in the background.
An empty bag of gummy bears for anyone who guesses the ledge?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 09:11pm PT
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TRAD!
Even Trad climbers, by many accounts, don't like the term.
I feel your pain. It's stodgy, divisive, clumsy, unaesthetic.
So's my hair but I still got to wear what's left of it!
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WyoRockMan
Trad climber
Flank of the Bighorns
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This guy is a helluva sport climber.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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I dunno Tar all them kids be shaving it off.
So that was unintentional, nonsense Dingus?
The thing with labels is that they make it too easy to take sides, and then define your side favorably and define the other side in a way to make them look like naughty Klingons, or something.
Instead of comparing notes, because we all do things differently than one another.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Trad=mountain adventure+unknown/who cares outcome
Father (note fishing pole just in case)
Son
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 10:23pm PT
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Jay Said:
The thing with labels is that they make it too easy to take sides, and then define your side favorably and define the other side in a way to make them look like naughty Klingons, or something.
Correct!
"Makes it easy" would be the operative here.
However, categorization and labels enable communication on a daily basis about all kinds of phenomenon and choices at hand.
Apparently for many it's an unconscious choice to use categorization and labels as a means to control or criticize others. As in: "Don't box me in dude".
But if you think about it, categorization and labeling is a tool for communicating with other people our observations about conditions within our surroundings and in fact these tools rest at the very foundation of language. Not that I'm a linguist. But I'd wager this is so.
It simply is necessary for us to define our terms to communicate concepts.
All of these ill feelings can be reduced to intent.
It's simply not a given with categorization and labeling that the outcome must necessarily be divisiveness.
It is not fait accompli.
Differences do not necessarily predetermine conflict. Intent does.
Differences exist prior to any categorization or labeling. Those tools are not the evils; rather it is the intent behind them. Shirking distinctions will not save us from our tendency to engage conflict. If we are hell-bent on conflict we will find a way. And perhaps with even less clarity!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 10:24pm PT
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WyoRockMan:
This guy is a helluva sport climber.
Is that Chris Bonnington?
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WyoRockMan
Trad climber
Flank of the Bighorns
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Dr. Pat Callis
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 10:29pm PT
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Walter Rosenthal!
Cleaning pitch 5 of Tangerine Trip 1977:
Carter photo
Walls are typically considered a trad format.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
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DR F:
OK I admit it, What the hell is trad???
I have no idea what the word means when it comes to climbing....
Actually, we have three fairly defined subsets of free climbing currently and have for about 15 or 20 years.
Trad climbing.
Head pointing.
Sport climbing.
Trad climbing is starting at the bottom and climbing to the top, with minimal artifice. Risk is minimized but embraced.
Sport climbing is setting up routes from the top down with a primary focus on safety and difficulty. Risk is nearly eradicated.
Head pointing is smack in the middle of the two: near equal emphasis is put on preservation of both the rock and the climber. Bolts are typically eschewed, ensuring preservation of the rock in a relative sense, while maximum difficulty is sought through pre-inspection and often preplacement of protection. This also helps to ensure preservation of the climber.
Head pointing was essentially established on Grit, wherein most of us understand bolts are a big no-no.
Head Point pre-inspection uses gear much in the way that trad climbers do except with pre-knowledge and often preplacement. Rehearsing moves minimizes risk and maximizes difficulty.
It sits squarely between trad climbing and sport climbing.
It is also very risky, but is more of like a performance due to pre-knowledge and practicing or working of the route.
It's not that difficult to comprehend these distinctions and we actually have these terms at hand and have for some time.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 10:45pm PT
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As you know, just as I wrote in the OP, the idea was to minimize taints.
Concepts such as three strikes and you're out, yo-yoing, were not ideal to an on-site flash of course.
These are gray areas but the general concepts hold quite easily.
You start from the general and then work through to the specific and this of course is where no system of labeling or categorization can be taken as an absolute.
These are guidelines for communicating style.
They need be nothing more.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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from Wiki sport,
SportAccord uses the following criteria, determining that a sport should:[1]
[1] have an element of competition
[2] be in no way harmful to any living creature
[3] not rely on equipment provided by a single supplier (excluding proprietary games such as arena football)
[4] not rely on any 'luck' element specifically designed in to the sport
They also recognise that sport can be primarily physical (such as rugby or athletics), primarily mind (such as chess or go), predominantly motorised (such as Formula 1 or powerboating), primarily co-ordination (such as billiard sports) or primarily animal supported (such as equestrian sport).[1]
If we accept the above 4 categories as reasonable criteria to justify the use of the word "sport" in sport climbing, we can then ask what is it about trad climbing that makes it not sport climbing?
I do remember the days of many climbers saying {now trad} climbing wasn't competitive. Trad lacks #1.
Bolts and pre bolting of sport climbing are an attempt to better meet criteria #2
In some sense criteria #1 and #2 are definitely part of sport climbing and to a lesser extent a part of trad climbing.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 10:49pm PT
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Dr F:
If you wish to climb in traditional style and you "taint", you simply did not reach your goal. This only matters intrinsically to the individual, or as an aspect of honest communication if one is seeking a comparative situation: as in competing or reporting style.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
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Dingus:
[1] have an element of competition
An interesting thing about trad climbing is that the competition was somewhat surreptitious, if not just informal. It became more important in regards to reporting that we define our terms and report accordingly.
Of course none of this has anything to do with simple enjoyment.
Or exercise.
It's about how we relate what we do to others and about how we define our own goals.
I like what you did there by pulling out a cogent exposition of competition.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
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OK, got it, all taints should be documented in your notes, and a taint free ascent will be the only way to gain a peaceful sleep at night
Very funny!
All of that stuff really only relates to personal satisfaction or to competition or reportage.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 10:59pm PT
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Dingus:
In some sense criteria #1 and #2 are definitely part of sport climbing and to a lesser extent a part of trad climbing.
I'd say that's accurate.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 11:07pm PT
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Walter Rosenthal and Allan Bard,
Preparing for Tribal Rite!
Both climbers are now no longer on the planet.
I suspect they wouldn't care much about these distinctions.
But it's my thread! And since they are preparing for a wall climb and generally engaged in ground up free climbing, I'm going to say they are/were ........... Trad Climbers!
Carter photo
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
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Hey!
What's this:
photomanipulation by OUCH!
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