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jstan
climber
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Mar 10, 2012 - 03:05pm PT
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Khanom:
I once responded to what I thought was an event for volunteers. Nothing. Went down to Nomad and apparently all that was going on was a class about how to climb. While I could probably use such a class I wanted to work. Very confused. If not others, I certainly was.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 10, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
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I know a couple things about that Intersection - Old Woman shot.
I took it ( using a kite to fly the camera ). It was taken almost three-and-a-half years ago; 11-28-08, to be exact. Things there may have changed a bit since then.
Here's a link to it on Flickr, which allows you to see a more high-resolution version ( click "actions", then "view all sizes" ):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30901290@N03/3067662644/in/photostream
Here's another shot, from the same day, showing what's left of the Old Road south of Intersection:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30901290@N03/3066792741/in/photostream/
I haven't done any KAP ( kite aerial photography ) around Old Woman / Intersection for a few years because I thought I had all the aerial shots of it I would ever need. I'll see if I can get some shots of that same area next time I'm out there, to see what the progress looks like.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 10, 2012 - 05:22pm PT
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Coz-
it's awfully hard for someone who cares about Joshua Tree, but who also lives 1000 miles away to have an off-line conversation with the climbing ranger!
I just happened to find the original post somewhat obtuse in it's phraseology.
I also pointed out that MY personal ethic does NOT INCLUDE chipping holds, doing extensive gardening, wire brushing, drilling holes, or glueing on holds. I also believe that these 'ethics' pervade the community here on Super Topo.
I also don't like the idea of being accused of guilt as in a general broadside, and being tarred with the same brush as the "offenders."
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Mar 11, 2012 - 04:49pm PT
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OK.....We've pointing fingers, called people names, threatened people, argued,.....now what....
Here are some positive suggestions where we can go from here;
1) Stop pointing fingers at the "bad guys". Message has been sent, and I'm sure recieved by those who needed to get the message.
2) Don't attack the messanger. Bernedette is not the enemy, a bad person, or a tool. She is the climbing ranger for the Nat. Park, the go between for climbers and the Park Sevice, and she does all sorts of vital and cool stuff to make sure climbers have a voice, are educated about policy and environmental issues, and is a climber herself. (yeah, she's cute;...I guess those comments can stay....)...
3) Climbers CAN and do managed themselves, and don't always need gov. agencies to tell them what to do. In this case, local climbers have already gone out to the area in question, and "fixed" or righted some of the wrongs. (This was done yesterday, actually;....climbers DO care, and individuals can make an impact and a difference.) Big thanks to the individual(s) who orchestrated this positive action and gesture. Action can be as powerful as words, no doubt.
4) Lessons have been learned. No need to beat the dead horse.
5) As Coz said,....if you can, take care of climbing issues privately with Bernadette and among ourselves;....posting pics of problems and ranting and carrying on is ammo and fuel for the fire of more rules and gov. imposed regulations.
6) Do what you can individually and collectively to make climbing awesome, treat each other with respect, and work with and not against our gov. agencies. Work together as a tribe or group of same-minded folks who care, treat each other kindly and respectfully, and as a group who try to and can make good decisions.
7) Get over yourselves. Joshua Tree is one of the coolest places on the planet, is in pretty good shape considering it's close to L A and San Diego, and gets 2 million visitors a year. Yeah, it's got growing pains, and a few problems here and there;....let's work together to solve them in constructive , positive ways, respectful ways.
Todd Gordon Local hopeful, climber, and fan of the wild places out of doors.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Mar 11, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
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4) Lessons have been learned. No need to beat the dead horse.
This is the part that ain't working. The so called perps, if they are the guys who are being suggested as the culprits, are SERIAL F*#KING CHIPPERS. What have they learned in 20 years of being chippers? It seems not much.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 11, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
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Bernadette, being a climber herself, is certainly aware that this kind of behavior is limited to the very smallest minority of climbers. Heck, climbers who do new routes are a very small minority, and among them people who chip, chisel, glue, landscape etc. are complete outliers.
Todd is right. Bernadette is a friend of, and an asset to the community.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 11, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
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Kris-
That being the case...I'll definitely go out of my way to meet and thank her when I'm out for the Todd Gordon blast!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 11, 2012 - 06:27pm PT
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Rodger, Bernadette has at least once attended the FaceLift, so that may be another possibility.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Mar 11, 2012 - 11:55pm PT
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Bernadette is one of us. She just so happens to have this government job.
Coz. has a good point to take this off line and I see the point but times are changing. I just heard an article about a think tank that works through problems with Internets forums and posts just like this.
Our online debates on this site provide an organic critical thinking computer. An intelligent person can easily pick through the crap and sort information.
Will this thread and others like it be used in the decision making process? I certainly hope so. The more who speak their mind the better.
IMHO - Father Figure is one of the coolest sport climbs ever created.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 12, 2012 - 12:30am PT
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To a large degree, this is about ego. Always weigh the impact on JT against you personal desires. Make a good decision.
Love it, cherish it, protect it. We always carry more out than we brought with us if we can.
Climbing is about harmonizing with the rock, not bending it, and the surroundings, to your will.
The smallest possible impact should always be a goal and an important measure of any climbing accomplishment.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Mar 12, 2012 - 12:49am PT
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IMHO - Father Figure is one of the coolest sport climbs ever created.
Are you saying it is chipped? "Created" is such a chippy type word.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 12, 2012 - 01:12am PT
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Yes. Make your choice.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 12, 2012 - 04:33am PT
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On ST you can find what you need in a dozen different places. I’ll quote a portion of something Ed Hartouni wrote.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1746405&msg=1748288#msg1748288
The Facelift didn't just happen, it had been happening in bits for a while, a few people initially doing what they thought was right... and then getting other people to think and realize that we could do something, bit-by-bit, and have an effect
I have friends who don't participate in the Facelift, but do its work all the year 'round, it is, after all, the right thing to do if you are committed to preserving a beloved place.
But someone like Ken, who had credibility in both the NPS and the climbing community could come forward and make the effort coherent, the Facelift. He had the vision to see what was required to bring these different communities together based on the overlap of their values, and it worked.
A small observation of my own here. Out there working during Facelift everyone senses very directly that we need each other. One person alone can do very little. In that very demanding environment
no one has a harsh word for their compatriots.
Over and over again on ST you read the comment that face to face individuals are not at all as they seem on ST. The internet can and will be an immensely important tool allowing us all to achieve what is needed, some day.
But, right now, we simply do not know how to use it.
This thread is a part of a much needed learning process. It needs to be thought of as just one of the many steps we must take - together.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Mar 12, 2012 - 09:49am PT
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Perhaps it is time to have a Facelift for Joshua Tree.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 12, 2012 - 12:03pm PT
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How can you even do a facelift in Joshua Tree?
There's nothing there but sand .....
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Mar 12, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
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You could probably get Botox nearby...
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 12, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
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It's gravel that's in Joshua Tree, Werner.
The sand all blew away.
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Mar 12, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
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Todd Gordon tells it like it is!
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 12, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
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Khanom-
I've tried several time to log on to your link, and I keep getting an "Internal Server error" message, and that I should contact the site administrator. Hmmm? How can I do that w/o being able to reach the website?
I'm all for doing what ever is possible to restore some of the damage that's been done to the Monument/Park over the years that I've been visiting a favorite area of mine.
re: "Honey holes" around popular areas; perhaps it would mitigate some of the damage by just a few strategically located portable crappers? One at the far end of the Hidden Valley Trail Loop?
I for one am a "friend of Joshua Tree," albeit in an unofficial capacity. This unofficial status is reflected by my "lower case" in using the word "friend."
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Mar 12, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
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i have some sympathy for coz's frustration with the way in which fake avatars, n00bs or career incompetents use ST as part of a growing entitlement culture, but i don't see much inappropriate sharing happening in this thread, at least not yet (aside from a few predictable asshat rants about NPS fascism and a few nasty comments directed at bernadette by the ranks of the aging and anonymous).
a few obvious things:
1. This thread should demonstrate to anyone reading it, that the posters here easily and quickly established a consensus view against "chipping" and vegetation removal in the Park. That strikes me as a good thing, especially for climber-Ranger relations.
2. Todd notes that responsible locals have attempted to mitigate the damage mentioned in the OP. Tx to the crew and to Todd for the share.
3. Russ notes the obvious issues with scofflaws. Not much to be done here aside from the time-honored informal social mechanisms and the increased scrutiny those folks are now going to draw from NPS.
4. Climbers have basically nothing to do with the three most important factors driving impact generally in the Park, namely the re-branding of the Monument as a Park and the subsequent increase in visitation; the population boom in the low desert and inland empire of the last ten or 12 years; and the increasingly visible impacts of long-term climate change.
Local impact issues, like trail braiding, are among the types of things that the local community and the NPS seem willing to co-operate on.
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