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426
Sport climber
Wartburg, TN
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Jody:"Look at the laws that are passed prohibiting "God" in the pledge."
Hey, why don't you research the "Original Pledge" before you trot out this stuff....
PS-It was going to end "and equality for all". You'll find no "god" in there.
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But perhaps it does not good to argue reason with a member of the "Flat Earth" or should I say, "Young Earth" society.
Can't help but notice you're skirting around the issue of a war based on lies and a secular America.
But here, let's stick to the ideas you proposed...first we'll look at Washington...
"Much of the myth of Washington's alleged Christianity came from Mason Weems influential book, "Life of Washington." The story of the cherry tree comes from this book and it has no historical basis. Weems, a Christian minister portrayed Washington as a devout Christian, yet Washington's own diaries show that he rarely attended Church.
Washington revealed almost nothing to indicate his spiritual frame of mind, hardly a mark of a devout Christian. In his thousands of letters, the name of Jesus Christ never appears. He rarely spoke about his religion, but his Freemasonry experience points to a belief in deism. Washington's initiation occurred at the Fredericksburg Lodge on 4 November 1752, later becoming a Master mason in 1799, and remained a freemason until he died.
To the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789, Washington said that every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience."
After Washington's death, Dr. Abercrombie, a friend of his, replied to a Dr. Wilson, who had interrogated him about Washington's religion replied, "Sir, Washington was a Deist."
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Werner-Long on style, short on substance. I think this thread is somewhat evidenciary proof that a "patriarchal, monotheistic" society is not very synonymous with many of the "civil and political liberties" laid out by the country's founders.
Maybe you are what one of my heros, Warren Harding, referred to as a "Valley Christian"...
I dunno, if you keep using the Gita, you're going to hell according to many Christians...
But it appears you agree we are a secular society; whatever "opinions" you have are justifiably yours and I'll defend your right to say them.
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It looks like a thread on which some of this was discussed was nuked by the admins; so I guess I'll ask, if some of you are so into this idea of the "respect for the act of sex..." then maybe you can parse out Jeff Gannon/James Guckert, raunchy gay sex in the White House for us.
http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/02/man-called-jeff.html
http://rawstory.com/exclusives/byrne/secret_service_gannon_424.htm
(not that I'm personally against it; in fact, Gannon can marry another man in my eyes, it "neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket"---how about your eyes, is this "moral" Can Gannon marry a gay lover?)
LEB: You accuse the 'liberal' side of painting with a broad brush...then you go ahead and do it. That binary viewpoint is straight off Fox News. If you're going to start labeling, then you should be precise and correct about it; if anything, I'm a libertarian. I'm more fiscally conservative than most "cons, neocons and Republicons".
While many weren't looking 2 weeks ago, Head Start was reauthorized with millions appropriated to faith based organizations. My fiscal conservative side winces. Does yours?
Last week, The Violence Against Women Act was reauthorized but only when attached to a petition to the Supreme Court to hear the "under god" clause of the Pledge of Allegiance. Do you see anything odd here?
Millions of dollars spent on stuff the founding fathers never intended to discuss? There must be another fiscal conservative somewhere other than here in Big T.
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WBraun
climber
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Sh-it you still here, spunky dude aren't ya.
Yes that's true according to some Christians I will be sent to hell.
Now, we'll see where I will be sent.
I'm going climbing now ..... you think that'll be Ok to do :-)
See ya brother until later when our next move encompasses?
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426
Sport climber
Wartburg, TN
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Yeah, I'm still waiting for a good "debunking" here.
Pascal's Gambit...but anyhoo....
Go on, climb, as I said earlier, "to each his/her own", it's your mang Jody who wants to legislate his "morals" onto women, gays, Nevadans, libruls, atheists, little kids (i.e. the pledge)....
and maybe even you....
Maybe a sign society is crumbling when people are kicked out of malls and airplanes for a t-shirt.
I certainly feel that if liberties are impinged, then it's a point to the "terrarists".
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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One question: If I do not believe in the God of Abraham (Ibrahim), or in fact, any god, why do I have to swear on the Bible in a court of law? If I am asked to swear on something I do not believe in, and there is no alternative available to me, and so I have to do it (or be found in contempt, I imagine) then am I not being forced to commit perjury by swearing on something I do not believe in?
Think about it.
Perhaps there is an alternative but I have never heard about it, but then I have only been in traffic court.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 7, 2005 - 04:52pm PT
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While the T shirt reaction might be debatable because of the public profanity, the secret service coming after this High School kid for putting a red thumb tack through the president's head with a thumbs down seems like an overreaction to me.
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1006-25.htm
Peace
karl
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426
Sport climber
Wartburg, TN
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Yeah, I didn't want to throw too much sand in anyone's eyes by mentioning that one. Trying to keep on a 'secular vs. religious' level and attendant freedoms and such.
Good thread Karl, sorry to jack it so badly....
But hey, while I'm here, Jod, you look up the Pledge yet?
You're into those socialist manifestos, eh? (hint:the Pledge was written by a Christian Socialist)....
-While you're there, look up how "in gawd we trust" was added to money...nowhere near the founding fathers' time...
...And I think I know where Jod got the "this is a Christian Nation" notion from....
In the Supreme Court's 1892 Holy Trinity Church vs. United States, Justice David Brewer wrote that "this is a Christian nation." Many Christians use this as evidence. However, Brewer wrote this in dicta, as a personal opinion only and does not serve as a legal pronouncement.
Later Brewer felt obliged to explain himself: "But in what sense can [the United States] be called a Christian nation? Not in the sense that Christianity is the established religion or the people are compelled in any manner to support it. On the contrary, the Constitution specifically provides that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.' Neither is it Christian in the sense that all its citizens are either in fact or in name Christians. On the contrary, all religions have free scope within its borders. Numbers of our people profess other religions, and many reject all."
Nice segue, if you looked up when the "Original" Pledge was 'writ'...
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WBraun
climber
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Ok I'm back 426
I see what you're saying and I'll go along with that.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Bad things happen when you have people (our government) with little or no morals dishing out morality.
GWB is a prime expamle of that.
For what it's worth...I tend to agree with 426.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Karl the irony of that thumbtack photo incident is almost too much to bear....
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Oct 27, 2014 - 08:24pm PT
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memories of the rocks...
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