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JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Sep 12, 2011 - 07:43am PT
Bruce,

Your tongue-in-cheek redneck conservative really described a proper subset of absolutists, rather than conservatives. I found it interesting that the article analyzed past villains, allegedly right-wing, such as Mussolini and Hitler (with a gratuitous insult to Ronald Reagan), but not alleged left-wingers such as Stalin (about as paranoid as it gets), Mao or Pol Pot. The latter ones would seem to fit their model just as well as the former.

The studies purported to examine those with conservative beliefs, not those with absolute beliefs. As such, I find its conclusions worthless.

John
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Sep 12, 2011 - 10:38am PT
the facts about social security from wsj:

"[Perry is] even technically right that Social Security is a species of Ponzi scheme (if not a criminal enterprise) in the sense that young people today are putting more into the system than they can possibly get out in retirement.

Part of the problem is that current seniors get more than they put in thanks to the formula for increasing benefits over time. Eugene Steuerle and Stephanie Rennane of the Urban Institute estimate that a two-earner couple both earning an average wage who retire in 2010 will get $906,000 in benefits having paid $588,000 in payroll taxes. The same couple who retires in 2030 will get $1.23 million (in constant dollars) while having paid $796,000.

Even a pyramid system such as this could be solvent if it took advantage of compound interest. But the overriding problem is that not a dime of the payroll contributions the government collects over a lifetime is saved and invested for a worker's retirement. Social Security's pay-as-you-go financing model means that 12.4% of all wages are transferred to current beneficiaries, the surplus dollars are spent by Congress on other things, and Social Security gets an IOU from the Treasury.

In other words, the program is building up debt even as benefits become less sustainable as the baby boomers begin to retire and the ratio of workers to seniors shrinks."
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 12, 2011 - 11:20am PT
Belief that everyone deserves everything and that someone else should pay for it, belief that the United States is evil and causes trouble around the world, belief that the rich "should pay" because they are "rich", always support the smaller miniority even though they may be evil, etc.

good grief.

If this is a troll, please stop it. This is an interesting conversation.

If its not a troll, then JohnE, do you also believe this?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 12, 2011 - 11:22am PT
Fattard and Posse...It's obvious you right-wing whackos are paranoid and slaves to your rigid thinking..Have you ever considered mental physics...?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Sep 12, 2011 - 11:27am PT
Fat wrote: Conservative thinkers waste little time studying the thought processes of liberals, they are plainly obvious. Belief that everyone deserves everything and that someone else should pay for it, belief that the United States is evil and causes trouble around the world, belief that the rich "should pay" because they are "rich", always support the smaller miniority even though they may be evil, etc.

Liberals live in Fantasyland.


Are you really that ignorant???


What we do know. The rich are paying historically low taxes. We invaded a sovereign country and destroyed the lives of millions of innocent people. Ronald Reagan...the poster child of the republican party raise taxes several times, double the deficit and tripled spending, destroyed workers rights along with reduced wages and benefits. GWB and his party didn't pay for his wars or prescription plan putting America in a financial hole that in may never recover from...also under GWB America saw it's lowest job gains (2 per cent in eight years) the lowest in modern history.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 12, 2011 - 12:06pm PT
Thank you Lois, for being honest.

I would like to hear what JohnE has to say about this.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Sep 12, 2011 - 12:08pm PT
LEB wrote: Well, that is a tad bit better than job loss, no?

What is your point??
dirtbag

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 12:27pm PT
Tea partiers can kiss my white, sweaty, hairy ass.


Fukk em.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 12:40pm PT
What are the Republican's motives?

This is received wisdom among economists, including many conservative ones. Mark Zandi, the Moody's chief economist who was John McCain's economic adviser, judged that the Obama stimulus passed in 2009 kept unemployment from rising two percentage points higher. He says that the president's new proposal would boost GDP by 2 percent and reduce unemployment by 1.9 million jobs. Economists argue about the multiplier effect of different forms of government expenditure but not about whether there is an effect. The only people who claim that stimulus doesn't stimulate the economy are Republican politicians.

You can group the conservatives who reject the economic consensus into three rough categories: fundamentalists, cynics, and sheep. The fundamentalists are ideological and come in several varieties.

http://www.slate.com/id/2303537/
dirtbag

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 12:58pm PT
Right, Fatty.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 01:16pm PT
Yeah, I'm fired up for some reason.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Sep 12, 2011 - 01:34pm PT
John M,

Your interest flatters me. I interpreted fattrad's descriptive generalization as a tongue-in-cheek caricature. The best, though, is by P. J. O'Rourke, "Why God is a Republican and Santa Clause is a Democrat" or words to that effect. O'Rourke's bottm line: we should be Republicans because there is no Santa Clause. ;-)

John
dirtbag

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 01:37pm PT
Well, there is no God either, so where does that leave us?
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 12, 2011 - 01:58pm PT
JohnE,

the reason I asked you is because to me it seems like the republican party has gone insane and you are one of the few old school republicans left whose opinion makes sense to me. Just look at Lois' response to what Jeff wrote. She was honest enough to admit that she basically believes that it contains truth. And I would be willing to bet that many other republicans feel the same way. There is a kind of insanity going on in with the Republican party at this time. I'm not saying that the dems have never been insane, or don't have their own forms of insanity. They do. But it seems that at this point, the republicans are furthest from their base.

The Dems went through a period of insanity when all they wanted were government programs, and to hell with the budget. They started rising out of that trap with Clinton, and a push for a balanced budget.

So what do you say to Lois, who basically believes what Jeff wrote? You can't just pass if off as a caricature, because we on the left hear it often from the right, and we rarely hear anymore any kind of balanced message. You are one of the few with at least some balance in their message. So what do you say to the Loises of the world. Who believe that liberals hate america, and only want others to pay their bills. How do you answer that, because frankly, I'm tired of trying to answer them.

On another thread, Skipt said that liberals only want bigger and bigger government. He said this is foolish since we believe that government is corrupt. Yet this is more black and white thinking in that we don't believe that all government is corrupt. We believe that certain members during the Bush administration were corrupt, and we would like to see them brought to justice. Plus, what is the alternative? Private enterprise is the only alternative and how corrupt is it. The free market system is not perfect, because it is run by humans, who are also not perfect.

I have all along said that we need a balance between private enterprise and government. And I believe that we need to stop the all or nothing, black and white rhetoric which Jeff writes constantly, and start speaking in balanced measures, but it becomes difficult when I hear so many republicans mimic what Jeff wrote.

So please speak to Lois. I want to here what you have to say to a republican like her.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Sep 12, 2011 - 01:59pm PT
"social security is a ponzi scheme", according to a liberal economist and nobel laureate (and i don't mean former enron advisor paul krugman):

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/276859/perry-and-ponzis-stanley-kurtz

and this goes back to 1967; although, samuelson tried to show that this particular ponzi scheme would actually work; in true liberal fashion (i.e. climate change), samuelson used computer modeling to prove his theory

what's that they say about computer programs and garbage?
dirtbag

climber
Sep 12, 2011 - 02:09pm PT
what's that they say about computer programs and garbage?

They produce trolls named bookworm?
Gary

climber
Desolation Row, Calif.
Sep 12, 2011 - 02:31pm PT
Capitalism is a ponzi scheme:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/19/80904/-The-Worlds-Biggest-Ponzi-Scheme

Quote Here
There are a lot of great things about capitalism. But I've come to the conclusion that it's unsustainable, for the same reason a Ponzi scheme is: it requires constant growth, or it collapses.

This time of year, you hear retail sales reports every week. Usually, it's something called "same-store sales" - a comparison of the sales this year vs. last year, at stores open at least a year. A big increase is good. No change is bad.

Why should that be? Why is it that no matter how well a store did last year, it's expected to do even better this year? Of course they don't want to lose sales, but what's wrong with staying the same? Why are corporations expected to show growth every quarter, year after year? The answer goes to the very heart of capitalism.

Banks can make money out of nothing at all, but ordinary people have to work to earn the money to repay those debts - plus the interest. Those compound interest payments mean the economy must constantly grow. More goods must be produced and consumed, more markets and more customers constantly found, more jobs created, or borrowers will start defaulting on their loans.

That is why I say capitalism is a Ponzi scheme. Like the classic Ponzi scheme, it needs a steady and ever-increasing supply of new investors, or it collapses. There has been no shortage of those in recent generations, as we expanded from local economies to the global capitalism we have today. But eventually, the expansion has to stop. In the end, the base of the economy is still natural resources. Bankers can create infinite wealth under our banking system, but backing up that wealth would require infinite resources - which the earth cannot supply.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 12, 2011 - 02:50pm PT
Dr. F.. Lets not go down that road. We already have. JohnE is a reasonable person. Lets wait and hear what he has to say.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 12, 2011 - 03:14pm PT
Lois,

You are making it a black and white issue again. Either all liberals are perfect, or you are not interested.

What I am saying is that at this point, a preponderance of Republicans have bought the media lies, ie.. liberals hate america, the military, the weathy, ect. and this leads to an inability to work together, no matter how altruistic the issue is, such as creating jobs.

This does not mean that liberals don't have their faults. But as evidenced by what happened under Clinton, liberals are waking up to their faults, whereas republicans still seem to be asleep, as evidenced by the Bush regime.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Sep 12, 2011 - 03:43pm PT
The problem is Lois, you have bought the lies about the poisons of the liberals. Ie.. you still seem to believe that liberals hate the wealthy and the military, and that they want everything given to them. This clouds your thinking, and gives you a false impression of what liberals believe, and thus whether they really are poisonous or not.

If you start with false premises, then you end with false conclusions.
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