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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 12, 2013 - 09:05pm PT
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Wessy, instead of playing amateur lawyer (badly), just read the fuking jury instructions (pasted below).
And then answer this, how will the jury know that Zimm was committing the misdemeanor you think he was, when the prosecution never even contended that he was, and the jury won't even be aware of the existence of that misdemeanor, much less the elements necessary to establish guilt?
SYG doesn't even have much if anything to do with this case--all it really means, in this case, is that Zimm had no duty to retreat unless he was engaged in unlawful activity. But "duty to retreat" never applied here, as the deadly force occurred after Zimm was getting grounded and pounded by TM.
You can still use deadly force even if you have engaged in unlawful activity, it's just not under SYG (and of course it has qualifications).
Here's an example to make this concrete: Wes goes into porn store to steal butt plug. Gets caught by cashier, who pulls out shotgun and says he'll kill Wes for that. Wes knows he can safely run out of the store before getting shot, but decides to pull out his gun and shoot cashier instead.
Wes cannot take advantage of SYG in that case, because he was engaged in unlawful activity. He had a duty to retreat.
If Wes hadn't committed any crime and the cashier said he'll shoot Wes because he doesn't like the way Wes looks, Wes would have the right to shoot cashier, even if he could have safely retreated, under SYG.
This is all sorta interesting, but doesn't have much to do with Zimm's case.
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF DEADLY FORCE
An issue in this case is whether George Zimmerman acted in self-defense. It is a
defense to the crime of Second Degree Murder, and the lesser included offense of
Manslaughter, if the death of Trayvon Martin resulted from the justifiable use of deadly force.
“Deadly force” means force likely to cause death or great bodily harm.
A person is justified in using deadly force if he reasonably believes that such force is
necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself.
In deciding whether George Zimmerman was justified in the use of deadly force, you
must judge him by the circumstances by which he was surrounded at the time the force was
used. The danger facing George Zimmerman need not have been actual; however, to justify
the use of deadly force, the appearance of danger must have been so real that a reasonably
cautious and prudent person under the same circumstances would have believed that the
danger could be avoided only through the use of that force. Based upon appearances, George
Zimmerman must have actually believed that the danger was real.
If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any
place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his
ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was
necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent
the commission of a forcible felony.
In considering the issue of self-defense, you may take into account the relative physical
abilities and capacities of George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin.
If in your consideration of the issue of self-defense you have a reasonable doubt on the
question of whether George Zimmerman was justified in the use of deadly force, you should
find George Zimmerman not guilty
However, if from the evidence you are convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that
George Zimmerman was not justified in the use of deadly force, you should find him guilty if all
the elements of the charge have been proved.
http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/Zimmerman_Final_Jury_Instructions.pdf
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jul 12, 2013 - 09:11pm PT
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Radically provoking a confrontation while carrying a firearm is profoundly blameworthy...and this ending with loss of his innocent victims life, Mr Zimmerman should be punished...even if essential doubts posit toward a manslaughter conviction.
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Jul 12, 2013 - 09:11pm PT
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how will the jury know that Zimm was committing the misdemeanor you think he was,
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah.
Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.
Here's an example to make this concrete:
Not sure if you realize this because you are clearly a complete fuking idiot, but
1) Zimmerman (the pursuer) was the only one with a gun.
2) There isn't a SHRED of evidence that Trayvon was committing ANY crime.
3) It is NOT the duty of a neighborhood watchman to confront potential wrongdoers. They are explicitly told not to get physically involved.
4) Zimmerman went out of his way, not to follow Trayvon and report his duties to the authorities, but to intercept and confront him.
Therefore, your example is COMPLETELY irrelevant and idiotic... possibly more so than your existence.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 12, 2013 - 09:21pm PT
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Hilarious! But Wessy, why would the jury conclude that what you wrote means that Zimm did anything unlawful? You remember the dispatcher's testimony that they cannot and do not tell callers what to do?
And you remember that Zimmerman told the dispatcher "OK"? (Whether Zimm did in fact keep following Trayvon, or just came across him, is disputed.)
And even if he did do something unlawful, he's still allowed to use deadly force, as explained in the jury instruction!
OK I'm done with Wes on this, he's been beaten as bad as TM was beating Zimm.
2) There isn't a SHRED of evidence that Trayvon was committing ANY crime.
Wes, you either know very little about this case or you're pathetically stupid (or both), so you should just STFU.
The wounds to Zimm, the condition of TM's body (abraded knucks from punching Zimm), and direct eyewitness testimony establish that TM was beating the fuk outta Zimm.
That's a CRIME you fuking pathetic idiot!!
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 12, 2013 - 09:22pm PT
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So two guys get in a fight in your neighborhood at night.
One is whupping the other. But NOT choking him, or pulling a knife or a club.
The whuppee pulls his gun and shoots the whupper dead.
Manslaughter? You bet, In My Not So Humble Opinion.
But hey, opinions are like ....... everybody's got one.
The jury verdict will be very interesting.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 12, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
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Florida Manslaughter Sentencing:
Manslaughter with a Weapon or Firearm
The crime of Manslaughter with a Weapon or Firearm is classified as a First Degree Felony and is assigned a Level 7 offense severity ranking under Florida's Criminal Punishment Code.
If convicted of Manslaughter, a judge is required to impose a minimum prison sentence of 9¼ years in prison and can impose any additional combination of the following penalties:
Up to 30 years in prison.
Up to 30 years of probation.
Up to $10,000 in fines.
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Jul 12, 2013 - 09:26pm PT
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An issue in this case is whether George Zimmerman acted in self-defense.
So in your world of idiocy, I can pick a fight in a bar and then shoot the person "in self-defense?"
You have proven yourself stupid beyond the shadow of a doubt.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 12, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
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reasonable
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jul 12, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
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Ahh, but HT, they say he was slamming fatboy's head against the curb. Could kill someone pretty easy that way.
Bottom line for me: You got out of the car, with a gun, seeking a confrontation knowing that if something escalated or you became afraid you would turn to your trusty sidearm. You weren't "Standing your ground" you were advancing and initiating a confrontation, knowing you had superior weaponry or at a minimum equal, and the drop. Then, while losing the physical confrontation you initiated, you turn to your sidearm and kill the person. The end. F*#k you. Guilty. Go to prison.
Don't care about racism, pot smoking, lying to judges, knock knock jokes, or any other sideshow minutiae.
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Jul 12, 2013 - 09:34pm PT
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reasonable has nothing to do with it when blah is involved.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 12, 2013 - 11:55pm PT
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Vigilantes aren't trained law enforcement. Why didn't he just call the po-po like any good neighborhood watch person?
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Jul 13, 2013 - 12:04am PT
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Did Tray walk up to Zimm and start beating the fuk outta him?
Or did Zimm get out of his car with a gun and confront Tray for being "up to no good or on drugs or something" because he wasn't going to let another one of "those as#@&%es get away with it?"
I don't think self-defense applies when you are following someone for no reason and initiate the confrontation. Apparently a lot of white male conservatives think it does.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jul 13, 2013 - 03:16am PT
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George Zimmerman may have designed instigating a confrontation to shoot someone...
Sadly,proving premeditation wasn't going to happen in this prosecution. Even a manslaughter conviction might persuade some truculents that society won't tolerate neurotic/paranoid vigilantes agitating for assassination...
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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Jul 13, 2013 - 04:20am PT
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gotta agree with the RIGHT WING COWARDS thing...you don't NEED a gun to defend yourself if you BELIEVE in yourself...
a crazy ass right wing CRACKER may kill you because HE NEEDS a GUN to PROVE his manhood...
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jul 13, 2013 - 04:50am PT
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I'm sorry, but this tragedy trancends right wing / left wing bickering...
Uncalled for shedding of innocent blood begs elemental justice... not purchase for more polarization.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jul 13, 2013 - 11:23am PT
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Hi Ron
Obviously, the case is important because of highly charged racial implications.
And history will record it as an important marker in U.S. race relations
Fundamentally, Mr Zimmerman’s defense is, I saw a young Black teen...I made up my mind he was a felon. I persued him, challenged him, he resisted and I shot him. What’s the problem?
Two strangers who never met... one walking with a bag of skittles and the other provokes and murders him unrighteously. If we can do that and get away with it...what chance do we have for a civil society? ...what hope will blacks and other minorities have for a just society?
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jul 13, 2013 - 11:39am PT
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Well put Jennie I concur completely.
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Jul 13, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
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this tragedy trancends right wing / left wing bickering...
But why is it that the majority of white conservative males think Zimmerman had every right to confront Tray for being "up to no good on drugs or something" despite ANY evidence of Tray doing ANYTHING wrong... other than being a black teenager with a hoodie? Why do they seem to think it is okay for an armed man to get out of his car, follow a teenager, and initiate a confrontation for NO legitimate reason?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 13, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
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That's an excellent summary, Jennie.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jul 13, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
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folks are missing the forest for the tree bark ..
Worth repeating.
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