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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Elevating the discussion with a bald faced racist calling for vigilante killings of Black people? Are you daft? I have no tolerance for evil hatred like that. Politeness be damned, ban this shitsack.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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manzanita man
Social climber
somerset, ca.
Jul 8, 2013 - 09:18pm PT
philo, GFYS,
i will shoot any that get near me, in the head.
Who? Blacks or Floridians?
FYI you dont really want to post this stuff online unless you want a visit from the EFF BEEE EYEE.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Well I would like to have a "Rip off a Cracker's head and sh#t down there throats" night.
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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Manzanita Man I'm sending you good vibes and a big hug...
everybody NEEDS LOVE in this world and you didn't get any for that I am sorry and empathize with you...
Good for you to put that existence in the rear view and KICK ASS in your life!!!
Now you are part of the climbing FAMILY and I mean that...I didn't have the kind of childhood you had or any comparable hardships but I did meet the best friends of my life through a campground (Hidden Valley in Joshua Tree and we are a small family there...if you ever want to come to JT and have a bad ass time climbing with a huge party afterwards (5 star meals by the way...(we eat better than any yuppie paying $$$50 for a meal...complete with music and night time adventures...) you can't miss us we are the ones having TOO MUCH FUN or you could pm me when you can make it!!!
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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rSin we need more love in this world...
if Manzanita Man had the upbringing and experience described in Riley's posting then he is "damaged goods"...or we could call it what it is (he is a victim of CHILD ABUSE)...
I will give a second chance to a victim of child abuse and error on the side of compassion...he needs to experience the love, friendship, belonging that a FAMILY provides...
I don't like his statements or viewpoint one bit...maybe that is because he wasn't taught like our parents taught us...
Manzanita Man heed our call become a lover not a hater...rise above it as you did your past experience...give of yourself for you are a worthy person...racist hatred of ANY race is WRONG don't align yourself with that type of thinking...
regardless if zimmerman is found guilty TRAYVON was found DEAD...it shouldn't have happened regardless of who is at fault a young life was lost...
your young life could have been lost but you overcame that horrible adversity...Trayvon doesn't have that chance...just think about it man...
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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this case continues to be very frustrating...
Dr F is correct if the jury isn't allowed to know about zimmerman's past brushes with the law but is allowed to know about Trayvon's how is a fair trial supposed to occur??
I guess this case illustrates the quality of the prosecuting attorney can make or break a case and whether justice is done...
if a quality police investigation and prosecution occur and a jury still doesn't convict we have to live with thier decision...
I don't think our system allows a new trial if zimmerman is acquitted...any lawyers out there who can explain it for us??
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Is the Prosecution going to bring up Zimmerman's history of Violence?
Arrested for resisting arrest, wife beating and a restraining order against him.
No??
why not?
Generally "character" evidence (such as having a character as a hothead or as a violent person) is not admissible to show that defendant acted according to that character in connection with the accused crime.
The theory is that a defendant (or other witness) should only be responsible for addressing the allegations related to the crime--his whole life isn't on trial. You can agree or disagree with that theory, but that's the general rule. There are lots of exceptions that allow prior bad acts to be admitted in particular cases, but I don't think the prosecution figured out a way to bring out evidence of Zimm's prior bad acts in this case.
Remember the prosecution has rested--the only way it will be able to bring in new evidence is on cross of the defense witnesses.
So a huge issue is whether Zimm will testify -- if he does, depending on his testimony, that may open the door to some of the evidence you'd like to see. Huge strategic implications are raised if the defense calls Zimm, and what questions they ask.
Most expert commentators I've seen predict that Zimm won't testify.
I want a new trial, one that makes sure he goes to jail.
It's possible that a mistrial will be declared before the jury renders a verdict; if that happens, Florida can retry him. One might think the prosecution would be scrambling like hell to get a mistrial at this stage--I'm sure they'd love a do-over and do things like better "prepare" Trayvon's morbidly obese, illiterate phone friend.
Once a jury verdict is reached, if it's not guilty, Zimm can never be retried by Florida for this (alleged) crime, no matter what, even if Zimm were to admit he was guilty. That's the "double jeopardy" thing. A civil suit can still be brought (remember the OJ case) regardless of the outcome of the criminal case; we'll see what happens with that.
Instead of getting mad about the fact that Zimm may be acquitted, perhaps you should give some thought as to why this seemingly local incident became a major national news story. If you need some hints, remember NBC has already apologized for the way it doctored the news to make it seem that Zimm was fixated on Trayvon's skin color.
Edit:
I don't think our system allows a new trial if zimmerman is acquitted...any lawyers out there who can explain it for us?? See above regarding "double jeopardy."
And despite being mocked on this thread for my "first year law student" analysis, I did in fact pass the second and third years of law school as well, passed the bar, and have practiced for many years. (Although I don't practice in criminal law and am not a FL lawyer of course. Still, double jeopardy is based on the United States Constitution.) I don't mean to suggest I'm an expert commentator on this trial--I'm not, and am just sharing my thoughts.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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I guess this case illustrates the quality of the prosecuting attorney can make or break a case and whether justice is done...
Not to me it doesn't.
The prosecution has done a pretty good job from what I've seen, and in some ways an excellent job (it's dropped the ball a few times, but that's normal in any complicated trial). I also have no doubt that Florida has spent far, far more resources on prosecuting this case than it would have in an "average" manslaughter case (and this always should have been a manslaughter case, at most, not murder). I don't believe for a second that the state would do things like tracking down Zimm's college instructor in a typical case in order to show that Zimm may have lied (or been simply wrong) on testifying on an extremely tangential point.
The prosecution's problem hasn't been with its lawyers, it's been with the evidence.
I would agree that this case may illustrate that a defendant who is able to afford a highly competent defense team is going to do a whole lot better than average criminal with a public defender. But it's hard to see what to do about that.
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Okay, I wasn't going to comment any more on this, and actually agree with most of blah...'s most recent analysis, until he couldn't resist a gratuitous slur at my profession. I'm a public defender and proud of it. Despite stereotypes, and undoubted bad examples in certain jurisdictions, I and most of my colleagues work damn hard for our clients and provide excellent representation for them, often better than that provided by some high profile, costly private attorneys. Sure in some cases well-funded private counsel make are able to access more resources than we often can, but sometimes these "resources"--such as "jury selection experts" and some other alleged "experts"---are much more "puff" than substance.I'm surely not spending all my time watching the Zimmerman trial---I have my own cases to work on (I'm on lunch time right now), but I haven't heard his lawyers do anything particularly extraordinary in this case, nothing that isn't pretty standard for most experienced practitioners.
The problem for the prosecution really is in the initial police investigation, and their initial assumptions as they conducted it. And, yes, I do think race and other stereotypes (youth in a hoodie) did play a role both in their attitude and Zimmerman's. While I do agree that this is more a manslaughter than a murder case, there surely is enough to justify the prosecution proceeding on that theory---I've tried (and won)a murder charge that was far more tenuous than this one.So, blah..., please use a little more thought before you write your "throwaway" comments.
Oh yeah, double jeopardy. While an acquittal would prevent a new charge/trial in Florida, Zimmerman could possibly be charged in Federal court for a civil rights violation. No double jeopardy because Florida and the US are "seperate sovereigns".An example was the case a few years ago where KKK members acquitted in state court for a murder were then prosecuted and convicted in Federal court for the same crime as a violation of Federal civil rights law. I don't expect that this would happen in this case but it could.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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AR, thanks for your comments. I didn't mean to slur public defenders--if what I wrote came across that way, I do apologize.
My comment really was intended to reflect the resources that Zimm's defense team has rather than their quality of lawyering. For example, today they've got some guy who did a video reconstruction of the incident, as well as a top-notch private forensic pathologist.
If PD's have access to that, I'd be surprised.
In Colorado at least, I've heard that a defendant with a PD generally has better representation than someone who is forced to hire a low-end private criminal defense lawyer (who may be some joker with no real experience in criminal law). But if you've got big bucks, I have to think that the ability to hire many, prestigious expert witnesses has got to help. If I'm wrong on that, I'll stand corrected!
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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No but it is being used as an excuse for your vile hate filled spewing.
So cry me a river of crocodile tears you had a rough life and you don't want to work on Maggie's Farm no more. So now you are free to spew hate and death threats to any one different.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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You know my nephew is a noble Black man from a difficult childhood.
He is now a decorated career military man serving in this country's armed forces.
He is a leader of men who say they would follow him into the gates of hell because they trust him and believe in his abilities and intelligence. He has a multitude of medals from his battlefield actions in Iraq and Afghanistan. He has been shot and wounded and blown up by an IED all while defending the freedoms of pigs like you Manzanita man. And you would thank him and repay his service with a bullet to the head no questions asked simply because he isn't white.
Your apology is not accepted.
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dirtbag
climber
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Damn Riley, you've written some very thoughtful posts. I salute you.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, all.... wow, i have been behind in checking out all the various 'post aspects' here...
and WHEWW... this one had grown so much, i wondered why... wow...
i can see it is due to taco-give-and-take, as to lot's of share, not just the news on this...
well, say, from the last few posts, at least, i can say this:
it is good to see some positive talk-and-share now, meaning THESE LAST few by riley and manzanita man... as to why some of you
all have various feelings about various groups of folks in the world, etc...
my ex-father in law, when i first met him, had some mighty awful derogatorily things to say about all kinds of folks, everywhere, :O
and i never knew him, or his life, before that--though his father was a strongly bad alcoholic, and so was he...
but--i noticed over they years, that as we gave examples of feeling good in spite of bad things--even though it was hard, and there were many things not to like, in the world :(--his opinions had better quality as to judgements, and understanding that there are reasons why folks do things, good or bad, and he began to not let that taint him...
it was good to see... :)
nice to see for example, a bit a growth:
this last share between manzanita man, and riley,
(hope i did not leave anyone else out?)
it is nice to see a look-share into why some feelings are so strong in ways that some may not understand...
my ex father in law, though very very different as to how he felt, about many things in life, became a very beloved member of our family and of my kids... i think he grew in good ways, due to a bit more goodness in his life...
may we all grow better, with the goodness and 'fertizer' (though THAT may not seem good at times) from those about us...
this whole situation of what zimmerman trigger, is all very sad :(
all from one night gone wrong for so many...
may more 'changes' step in the lives of many folks out in the world, to NIP OFF these bad situations before they grow...
oh ps:
it is a humbling hard thing to do at times:
saying 'i'm sorry' ... very good to hear that, manzanita man, thank you,
as from a taco-reader here, even though i was late to read this tread...
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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This seems like good commentary:
Those defense lawyers are some skilled bastards.
They taken the bigger, racist older guy with martial arts training and the loaded gun
and made him the "Please, please, can't somebody help me!" VICTIM in this case.
Then they took the smaller kid who was armed only with f-ing Skittles and made him
the violent, druggie AGGRESSOR with all that pent-up rage for the White Devil.
...will the all-white jury agree?
As for manzanita man, well, I've met people with number tattoos on their arms, courtesy of the Final Solution, so I don't really care where you came from, you can take your racist attitude and stick it where the sun don't shine.
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Jul 10, 2013 - 12:16am PT
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the bleached piece sh#t who posted his begging bowl on fox 'entertainment'...
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 10, 2013 - 09:52am PT
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Thanks, manzanita man. Back at ya.
There are lots of folks that have had it way harder than you that didn't become hate filled racist pricks. Some people overcome their beginnings, some succumb to their starts.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jul 10, 2013 - 09:57am PT
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Case in point Gary right here. Harder childhood and I'm a prick, but not a racist.
Well, not much of one anyway.... according to my wife.
Who's not a honkey.
But I do seem to be the only one here who is willing to let the jury decide this case based on the facts that THEY are presented and not the facts that the media is "saying" occurred. It was a sad tragedy that could have been avoided.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 10, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
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Nelson ruled Wednesday that jurors will not see Trayvon Martin's text messages, which purportedly show he had been in fights and was trying to purchase a gun
Pretty big evidentiary ruling here; if the jury saw the texts from Trayvon's phone discussing fights and his friend telling him he should stop fighting so much, think that could make it close to a slam dunk for the defense.
Ruling didn't seem right to me (but I've not brushed up on this and certainly could be mistaken); wonder if this could be a significant enough issue for a successful appeal if Zimm's convicted.
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