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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Mar 17, 2011 - 08:21pm PT
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Fukushima is providing all the informing I need to make a decision as to whether I want Nukes in the future. There will be massive propaganda to tell us that this could never happen in the US.
Or it could usher in a new review and re-thinking of safety inplementation.
There is an appropriate Churchill quote here;
“You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.”
But the Japanese are the same way.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Mar 17, 2011 - 08:36pm PT
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We will undoubtedly hear lots of propaganda for and against. You can count on the NRC to perform a detailed review and there will undoubtedly be some changes in the important to safety systems and reforms in terms of accident scenarios and design basis events. The NRC are not beholden to industry, however, they are beholden to the president (for what its worth).
Where I work, we are constantly and thoroughly reveiwed by the Defense Nuclear Facility Safety Board which answers to the president. While we are not building a reactor, we are building the worlds largest Radio-chemical processing facility which will be used to clean up 53 million gallons of highly radioactive waste. I came to this job from a plant that destroyed perehaps the worlds most dangerous chemicals, Sarin and VX. All I can tell you is that the nuclear industry is more stringent than that one, for what its worth....
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Mar 17, 2011 - 08:36pm PT
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"Chronic long-term low dose exposure (inside the body)
Health problems will take 10, 15, 20 years to show-up at times.
Not so many studies have been done. Effects are not known as well."
Not true. The BEIR IV and IV reports used the health studies of a number of cohorts of uranium miners, followed for decades, to estimate the health effects of high and low dose chronic exposure to radon gas and radon daughters (alpha particles - like plutonium fallout).
The reports were the ultimate basis for the EPA's radon concentration limit for homes.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Mar 17, 2011 - 08:44pm PT
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"From what I gather from the media, TEPCO is focusing on the Reactor 3 spent fuel container because it is the only one of the storage pools that has MOX fuel which, due to its plutonium component, has the potential for more serious contamination.
Can you folks comment.
Plutonium is very bad stuff. Check the wiki article on it"
"My uncle in Richland WA (Hanford)) has told me about handling Plutonium buttons with his bare hands; with the cautionary note that you really don't want any dust particles into your lungs. He is now a healthy 90 years old..."
Agree with Tom. My grandfather worked on the Manhattan project, and helped develop nuclear power sources for "listening devices" placed to listen in on china. According to my dad, he brought home plutonium blocks that my dad messed with as a kid.
As an alpha emitter, it can't hurt you unless the charged particles (or dust, from fallout of plutonium) are inhaled or eaten. Then, yeah, its really bad news.
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Bargainhunter
climber
Central California
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Mar 17, 2011 - 09:47pm PT
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"When you say it's gonna happen now,
When exactly do you mean?
See I've already waited too long
And all my hope is gone..."
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PP
Trad climber
SF,CA
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Mar 17, 2011 - 09:53pm PT
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Helen calicott has some interesting things to say about nuclear power. for those of you that still think it is worth the risk I ask how you are going to convince your neighbors to put it in your back yard ?
There are lots of alternatives for saving energy. Most older houses in california are not even insulated, lets start there. Your neighbors probably won't object to that.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Mar 17, 2011 - 10:18pm PT
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^^^ well, that depends, now... on whether you count making stuff in the house, like solar panels, rice cookers, or maintaining the house, like roads, street lights, or maintaining yourself, like food, or clothes, or a new #6 cam, or keeping your lifestyle, like visiting the doctor or having a job or having a fire department or a university for your kids...
there's a lot more to it than electricity consumed at an individual home. concrete, alone, consumes 5% of electricity. CONCRETE! I've never personally bought concrete, but that doesn't mean I don't use it.
I agree, though, that we should be able to sell produce and sell power back to the grid, but I don't think we're shedding the coal/nuke monsters anytime soon.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Mar 17, 2011 - 10:28pm PT
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residential is 22% of the energy use in the US.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Mar 17, 2011 - 10:32pm PT
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I agree, though, that we should be able to sell produce and sell power back to the grid, but I don't think we're shedding the coal/nuke monsters anytime soon.
Yeah. Maybe in 20-50 years we can though. So let's not get all crazy, uh?
Nuclear/Coal/oil has to be used for now. BUT!!! This is the time to be researching alternatives, as we are doing. Doesn't mean they are viable yet though. Not enough to do away with conventional sources.
Be realistic!
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Mar 17, 2011 - 10:35pm PT
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We're lucky that we haven't had to deal with this in the US yet. The Union of Concerned Scientists released a report today listing "14 'near-misses' at U.S. nuclear plants during 2010 and evaluates the NRC response in each case".
http://ucsusa.org/nuclear_power/nuclear_power_risk/safety/nrc-and-nuclear-power-2010.html
SFGate has a story about the Diablo Canyon reactor at San Juis Obispo:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/03/17/BUA01IDTUO.DTL
Diablo Canyon nuclear plant 'near miss' in report
"For 18 months, operators at the Diablo Canyon nuclear plant near San Luis Obispo didn't realize that a system to pump water into one of their reactors during an emergency wasn't working.
It had been accidentally disabled by the plant's own engineers, according to a report issued Thursday on the safety of nuclear reactors in the United States......
...Engineers at Diablo Canyon inadvertently created the problem while trying to solve another issue, according to the report.
A pair of remotely operated valves in the emergency cooling system was taking too long to move from completely closed to completely open. So engineers shortened the distance between those two positions, according to the report.
Unfortunately, two other pairs of valves were interlocked with the first. They couldn't open at all until the first pair opened all the way. No one noticed until the valves refused to open during a test in October 2009, 18 months after the engineers made the changes....."
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Mar 17, 2011 - 10:35pm PT
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Geez, bluering, for once I agree with you, why do we vote differently?? (don't answer that, it is rhetorical!!!)
kunlan - Ed made a very good point way back... we have assess the relative safety / disaster effect with the benefit of each. Perhaps nukes aren't as safe as we think (which we think is lots safer than coal). I said this once before - it is a bit like comparing plane crashes (big, horrible, scary, and very infrequent) to car crashes (small, and so frequent even pilots are more likely to die in a car than a plane). Assuming nobody is staying home (not using power) ... do we drive or fly? And what about those near plane crashes - did we learn from them?
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Mar 17, 2011 - 10:44pm PT
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Cleo - have you read the reports? The NRC is very effective in some cases, and ineffective in others.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Mar 17, 2011 - 10:46pm PT
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No, kunlan, sorry for spouting prematurely, and maybe my comments weren't actually directed at you.
Thanks for the link - I will take a look.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Mar 17, 2011 - 10:48pm PT
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I think Dr. F and bluering more or less agree.
GROUP HUG!!!!
Okay, I'm signing off, thanks for the good discussion, guys.
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BLD
climber
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Mar 17, 2011 - 11:24pm PT
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Cragman, glad to see that pointed out here again.
The people in the sunami effected areas have experienced something so far from normal.
It seems that in Japan most are familiar with the ground shaking. The surge of water and it's wrath must have them shaken in a different way. Lay on top of that cold, snow, hunger, thirst, radiation and death of family and most of your neighbors.
I wish I could help......
B
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Mar 17, 2011 - 11:28pm PT
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I wish I could help also. Prayers and best wishes to the people of Japan.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Mar 17, 2011 - 11:52pm PT
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hey there say, cragman and studly... yep, if all of us, and of course there must so many more in the world, doing this, even now:
but if we all chip in and pray for something, even giving a few hours of our time, or meals, everyday, hopefully some miracles can happen for who knows how many, in japan that are homeless and foodless...
many nice miracles happened for our flanders/doug, and many were amazed... it is the joint prayers and wishes in love as a unit, that are so special...
we can do this for the japanese, and take on the nuclear worries, secondary, as well...
it is WHAT we can do, when can't do anything...
and, it is WHAT we can do everyday, at anytime as well, even when we CAN do things...
it is a wonderful thing for anyone to do...
so here we go:
:)
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Mar 18, 2011 - 12:21am PT
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In all of the ramblings regarding the nuclear factor, let us not forget that there are thousands dead, dying, or searching for the living as we speak, not to mention hundreds of thousands homeless!
Right now this is the most immediate issue.
Normally, when a country is hit by such a massive earthquake, thousands of rescuers flood in from all over the world to help. This started to happen right after the quake but now everyone is afraid and those there are rushing for the exits.
Also, remember the nuclear plant is in the middle of a disaster area. There are thousands of people there who need help. But even the Japanese rescuers are afraid to help them. They have been told to remain sealed of indoors but are running out food and water. Many of them are stuck there and not able to leave.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 18, 2011 - 12:22am PT
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Just heard that one of my friend's family is safe
He has a friend in Sendai though that he has been unable to contact.
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BLD
climber
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Mar 18, 2011 - 12:32am PT
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Given the destruction all around Fukushima, the entire crew there must have been understandably frizzle fried from day one. I'm thinking most of them never had a chance to check on their loved ones. One would think that the higher ups would have taken this into consideration. They have had there hands and minds full while staying at their posts. Gotta hand it to them for that and all they have done. I think it's fair to everyone that someone take over and put this to bed.
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