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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Sep 11, 2015 - 11:27am PT
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If there is evidence that microtubules can do 'warm wet' quantum computation, researchers trying to develop cold dry quantum computers may take an interest.
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Sep 11, 2015 - 12:07pm PT
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But none of them will go so far as to say the emergent function is selfsame to the brain.
Well, some of them do. But if mind isn't what the brain does, then what exactly does it do? Bloodflow is not selfsame to the circulatory system; breathing not selfsame to the lungs, photosynthesis not selfsame to the leaf; electricity not selfsame to the circuit - no one apparently has a problem accepting any of these as emergent functions. But to say that "mind is what the brain does" becomes such an insurmountable hurdle, the lack of refutation for which has so far only been masked by simple derision.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2015 - 12:09pm PT
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Without this computational,quantifying taking place in the CNS and brain at all times there could be no consciousness...
Not so. But I'm watching track and field on TV in Zurich and will respond to this later. This belief is not derived from empirical data.
JL
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Sep 11, 2015 - 12:39pm PT
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Not so. But I'm watching track and field on TV in Zurich and will respond to this later. This belief is not derived from empirical data.
Just give me the short answer during the commercial break.
If you are wrong, which you will be, you must send me a rasher or two of Gruyere cheese as penalty.
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Sep 11, 2015 - 03:58pm PT
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Lots of ground that's already been covered here. Nice production values, though:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Sep 11, 2015 - 07:36pm PT
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Bill and Bob both decide to fully experience the expression Form is emptiness and emptiness is form. Bill Zensits for 20 years during which time he reaches his goal. Bob, a lazy and degenerate fellow carouses with women , song, drink, and drugs for 20 years and at the end of that time visits a hypnotist of renown and explains his desire. After several sessions the hypnotist puts Bob in a deep spell and tells him,"Bob, when you awake and for the rest of your life you will experience a feeling of great profundity when you hear that expression. You will know in the deepest recesses of your mind what it means, but you will have found it to be an ineffable epiphany and will be unable to communicate the meaning to anyone."
A few days later Bill and Bob meet for a beer at a local joint. Bill says, "Bob, do you now understand the deep and profound meaning of the expression?", and Bob replies, "Yes, Bill, but it cannot be expressed in words or in any other form of communication. How about you?" Bill replies, "of course I do, and like you I realize it is beyond explanation." They finish their beers and part after a brief handshake, each thinking the other hasn't a clue.
;>)
MikeL: Indirectly. From The Exorcist
Couldn't avoid spicing up WW's poetry.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 12, 2015 - 08:05am PT
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PSP: I get stuck in a dualistic relationship often because I want things to be different . . . .
+1
Jgill:
I suspect you assume that there is a goal, an achievement, a place of arrival in all of this “mind work.” There isn’t. (Look up “gateless gate.”) What seems to be happening for you is that you are not perceiving the meaning of terms or pointers being used. That might be because, as Largo and PSP say, you are not “doing the work.”
And why would you? What the heck is the point of doing anything unless you get some kind of reward or improvement from it?
Seeing anything as special constitutes a glitch in the matrix. Yet that, too, is a part of the matrix.
(Your narrative is humorous. :-) Thanks.)
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Sep 12, 2015 - 02:44pm PT
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What seems to be happening for you is that you are not perceiving the meaning of terms or pointers being used. That might be because, as Largo and PSP say, you are not “doing the work.”
I cannot deny this.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Sep 15, 2015 - 03:09pm PT
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Akashic Records ...
That's a thread-killer if there ever was one.
. . . computation is at the very heart of awareness, perception, thought whenever and wherever consciousness functions (Ward)
The word "computation" for me means a conscious process is put in play, rather than neuronal activity:
Computation is any type of calculation that follows a well-defined model understood and expressed as, for example, an algorithm, or a protocol (wiki)
A calculation is a deliberate process that transforms one or more inputs into one or more results, with variable change. The term is used in a variety of senses, from the very definite arithmetical calculation of using an algorithm, to the vague heuristics of calculating a strategy in a competition . . . (wiki)
Guess it depends on your definition.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 15, 2015 - 07:40pm PT
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The word "computation" for me means a conscious process is put in play, rather than neuronal activity
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/15/science/its-my-nervous-system-thats-lazy.html
The human nervous system ensures that the body reserves its energy and expends as few calories as possible with every movement. Now, a new study reports that the nervous system performs this optimization in real time.
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(15)00958-6
Humans Can Continuously Optimize Energetic Cost during Walking
Jessica C. Selinger, Shawn M. O’Connor, Jeremy D. Wong, J. Maxwell Donelan
Summary
People prefer to move in ways that minimize their energetic cost [ 1–9 ]. For example, people tend to walk at a speed that minimizes energy use per unit distance [ 5–8 ] and, for that speed, they select a step frequency that makes walking less costly [ 3, 4, 6, 10–12 ]. Although aspects of this preference appear to be established over both evolutionary [ 9, 13–15 ] and developmental [ 16 ] timescales, it remains unclear whether people can also optimize energetic cost in real time. Here we show that during walking, people readily adapt established motor programs to minimize energy use. To accomplish this, we used robotic exoskeletons to shift people’s energetically optimal step frequency to frequencies higher and lower than normally preferred. In response, we found that subjects adapted their step frequency to converge on the new energetic optima within minutes and in response to relatively small savings in cost (less than 5%). When transiently perturbed from their new optimal gait, subjects relied on an updated prediction to rapidly re-converge within seconds. Our collective findings indicate that energetic cost is not just an outcome of movement, but also plays a central role in continuously shaping it.
people solve an optimization problem they aren't aware of solving... or even that there's a "problem"
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Sep 15, 2015 - 10:03pm PT
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Non-conscious computation. Biological computers.
Fruity was correct: we are nothing but machines.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Sep 16, 2015 - 05:15am PT
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jgill, you know there is a difference between (1) "we are machines" and (2) "we are nothing but machines".
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Ay Aye
Social climber
MIT, Cambridge, Massachusetts
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Sep 16, 2015 - 06:35am PT
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Hey, I resemble that remark, whoop whoop!!
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Sep 16, 2015 - 12:35pm PT
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Picky, picky . . .
OK, we are machines.
And years of Zensitting puts into play an optimization process that allows us to experience That which has no Physical Extent.
Things are beginning to come together here.
;>)
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 16, 2015 - 01:28pm PT
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we are machines.
NO !!!
We are the driver of our machine (gross and subtle material body) that the foolish modern scientists "Think and speculate" is the "I" due to complete ignorance.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 17, 2015 - 10:30am PT
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We are machines.
You could say that we and our societies are machines, holograms, psychic prisons, political systems, organisms, brains, cultures, etc. All are metaphors.
Metaphors are ok, but let’s not forget that metaphors are not literal.
The internet may be the digital superhighway, and that may tell you something or imply something insightful to you, but neither are the “things” or the “thatness” (suchness, tattva) of what it is that you think you are pointing at.
Metaphors work because they put two unlike things together, and in doing so transfer properties of one onto the other. (Think Venn diagrams.) The combination of the two things (the metaphor) automatically generates a cognitive tension, and that tends to generate excitement (emotion), which appears to spur creativity. Metaphors permeate language, and they are often used in domains that are very poorly mapped (where creativity flourishes).
The thing is *not* to take metaphors too concretely. They are never “the thing” (suchness, thatness).
Metaphors are meant to be played with. Be child-like in most everything.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Sep 17, 2015 - 11:36am PT
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Nice post, Mike.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 18, 2015 - 05:06pm PT
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The principal element of creation is the mind.
But the soul is never created and exists eternally.
When the individual soul is synced to the Supreme Super Soul's mind then life is correctly situated.
Until then one remains in bondage to the three modes of the material energy:
Ignorance
Passion
Goodness
Only in Pure goodness (transcending the mode of goodness) will one be free from material defects of the dual nature of ones materially conditioned infected mind and be free from the cycle of birth death disease and old age .......
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