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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:44am PT
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So we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we might have. This “double ethical bind” we frequently find ourselves in cannot be solved by any formula. Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest. I hope that means being both.
The bolded part is what Chef Cherry Picker left out.
Be careful out there Chef.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:54am PT
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The contrarians are the ones making the poor predictions.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Aug 24, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
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Take a good look around Ed. It is not that the predictives take time to evolve, or build up in fits and starts, it is instead the observed reality is going 180 degrees in the opposite direction. I suppose you believe they will make a complete 360 degree revolution and conform to the "science" at some unknown date an eon or two in the future, but we can't stop the world on suppositions. It is highly likely we are entering a period of global cooling and along with it erratic weather patterns which might last many decades into the immediate future. Their are many respectable scientists and exhaustive studies pointing in this direction. Why can't you accept such a possibility instead of having almost all your chips on CAGW?
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dave729
Trad climber
Western America
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Aug 24, 2013 - 10:10pm PT
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We non-stupid people always underestimate the harmful potential of
all the truly educated stupid people who believe global warming can be
stopped by taking money out of my bank account and
putting it into theirs. (carbon credits etc)
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 24, 2013 - 10:17pm PT
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This photo that CAPNTHEASS posted,
Get yer facts straight, fuknut. I didn't post the fatboy pic. I posted the little man pic.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
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Sorry guys, put a late one in on my remodel here in Nv. Not currently using any PL 400 Bruce, just Tite Bond II for my underlayment. Anyway it's good to see you've diverted your tactics away from the amateur psycho babble b.s.
Ed, i've posted, or made reference to, many papers in the past from the likes of Gray, Easterbrook,Latif,Tsonis and others claiming that oceanic turnover in regular oscillations are Earths primary climate change driver and many of these respected scientists say we are in for a cooling trend.
Scafetta, penn, livingston, Lu, Abdussmatov, Christiansen, Svensmark, Shaviv and other respected solar scientists claim that the Sun is the primary driver of climate change on Earth. Many of these same scientists and others are calling for a distinct cooling trend of anywhere from 30 to 250 years because of the solar minimum we are slipping into.
Here is a link to a paper that says orbital forcing (Milankovitch cycles) is the primary driver of climate change on Earth. I don't have to tell you the hundreds or thousands of scientists in agreement about this. Some say we are on a long term downward trend in temps to the next ice age.
http://www.omsj.org/reports/esper%2012.pdf
As far as picking the side that fits my politics, it is obvious that you a are not yourself without sin as you cast the first stone. By all accounts you are a highly respected scientist and are certainly capable of reading and digesting the various papers, but you are not a "climate scientist" and have not spent your career studying all the nuances.What i'm saying is you are not qualified to dismiss the papers by your fellow respected scientists listed above who have spent a considerable portion of their careers studying the science. With all due respect, sir.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Aug 24, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
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We were on a slow descent into the next ice age. Not any more.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 25, 2013 - 12:52am PT
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but the difference between you and me, rick, is that I can understand the science, you can only pick which scientist you'll believe in...
Hhmmmm!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 25, 2013 - 01:44am PT
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That cracked me up ...
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 25, 2013 - 01:55am PT
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One of the great things with this thread is that I now have a few people that I can hold up as examples of the lunatic fringe.
I wonder if Barry would think the same.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Aug 25, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
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Ed, was correct on one point and not quite on another. He acknowledged, in a fashion, that we both choose whom we tend to believe within the nuance of our particular political persusions. And with that acknowledgement is the implication that he rarely, if ever, takes the time to read and understand papers contrary to his persuasion. The second point he made about me not being able to interpret what i read is partially incorrect. Most papers, especially by those with good writing skills, take the time and effort to verbally describe their study, it's methodology , it's conclusions, it's implications. I can understand this. Any one who spends the time can likewise discern the meaning. What i'm lacking is the math skills to verify their process and proof it's outcome.
And Bruce; like i've said repeatedly in the past-i used to believe in AGW. I was far to busy to take the time to dive into the subject and the arctic where i lived was indeed warming in the late 80's through the nineties. That warming ceased and reversed course, the shrill cries of the alarmists became louder, more desperate, and their wild predictions failed one after another. At that point the prudent thing to do is a bit of investigation. I did, i read of the many contrary opinions by many, many scientists. I along with many millions of other citizens saw through the scam and the reasons behind it. If you would get your head out of your ass you could also,my freind.
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command error
Trad climber
Colorado
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Aug 25, 2013 - 01:42pm PT
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The public understands that what climate scientists are arguing about is no
more important to them, or the world, than how many angels can dance on the
head of a pin.
Zip.
It may be mildly entertaining like ghost stories told around a campfire but
not to be taken seriously.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Aug 25, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
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abrams
Sport climber
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Aug 25, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
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or is it really a help to cool the planet? Aerosols
from coal have been proved to have a cooling affect
on the atmosphere. And I know this sort of thinking makes
AGW believers brains hurt.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Aug 25, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
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Aerosols are well understood by climate scientists and anyone who looks below the surface. At least as far as under what circumstances they are cooling or warming. They are also short lived, compared to CO2.
China is committed to reducing their aerosols because their people are demanding it.
Reduced aerosol stream will put some upward pressure on rising temps but no one is demanding that we keep up the stream.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 25, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
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^^^
Seriously Abrams? You do understand that 2/3 of the SO4 emissions and 1/4 of the NOx emissions (e.g. the causes of acid rain) are from burning coal?
You're willing to trade one f'd situation for another f'd situation? Talk about making someone's brain hurt.
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abrams
Sport climber
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Aug 25, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
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What? Who elevated me to emperor of the world and didn't tell me?
Not in my or anyone's power to stop coal use ElCap.
Check out this shocking view of world wide uncontrolled coal use.
Lots of these people are already sneaking past armed guards to
steal their daily basket full of coal.
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2012/01/coal.html
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Aug 25, 2013 - 03:09pm PT
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Hilarious, Chief. Just ask the residents of Beijing and many other Chinese cities. They are demanding their government clean up the air.
Air pollution has gotten so bad that a study by the World Bank found that air pollution kills 750,000 people every year in China.[27] Amidst growing public concern, social unrest incidents are growing around the country. For example, in December 2011 the government suspended plans to expand a coal-fired power plant in the city of Haimen after 30,000 local residents staged a violent protest against it, on the grounds that "the coal-fired power plant was behind a rise in the number of local cancer patients, environmental pollution and a drop in the local fishermen's catch."[28]
In September 2011, the Chinese government's Ministry of Environmental Protection announced a new emission standard for thermal power plants, for NOx and mercury, and a tightening of SO2 and soot standards. New coal power plants have a set date of the beginning of 2012 and for old power plants by mid-2014. They must also abide by a new limit on mercury by beginning of 2015. It is estimated such measures could bring about a 70% reduction in NOx emissions from power plants.[33]
In 2012, industrial conglomerate China Wanxiang Holdings signed a $1.25 billion deal with American company GreatPoint Energy to build a large-scale plant using GreatPoint's catalytic hydromethanation process of coal gasification. The technology converts coal into natural gas and enables the recovery of contaminants in coal, petroleum coke and biomass as useful byproducts. Most importantly, nearly all of the CO2 produced in the process is captured as a pure stream suitable for sequestration or enhanced oil recovery.[34] The total project will cost an estimated $20 - 25 billion and will supply a trillion cubic feet of natural gas.[35] This represents a massive leap in the scale of domestic production for China, which last year produced only 107 billion cubic feet of natural gas.[36] The deal includes includes an equity investment of $420 million, the largest ever by a Chinese corporation into a venture-capital-funded U.S. company, according to industry tracker VentureSource.[34]
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Aug 25, 2013 - 07:22pm PT
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Here's some free ammunition for wRONg and other on the opposition team. From News of the Weird:
British birdwatchers were especially excited by news earlier this year that a rare White-throated Needletail (the world's fastest flying bird) had been spotted on the U.K.'s Isles of Harris -- only the eighth such sighting in Britain in 170 years -- and ornithologists arranged for an expedition that attracted birdwatchers from around the world. A June report in the Daily Telegraph noted that about 80 people were on the scene when the bird appeared again, but then had to watch it fly straight toward the blades of a wind turbine. (As the event might be described by Monty Python, the bird thus joined the choir invisible, left this mortal coil, became an ex-White-throated Needletail.) [Daily Telegraph, 6-27-2013]
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