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CarCamper
climber
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Ksolem and Davidji ask why I don't like trigger locks; sorry, I should've been more specific. When travelling (without a carry permit) it's safest to keep the gun locked away, and a trigger lock is added pro. But at home, for a gun that's kept for home defense, trigger locks can get you killed. (Personal opinion, not that of the NRA.)
If you want to use one, go ahead, but you may want to get in the habit of taking it out at nite - just in case you need the handgun in a hurry. I have a small safe that holds one handgun. The locking mechanism is such that I can open it by pushing the combo buttons without needing to see those buttons. If you don't have a safe, then trigger guards are the next best option, especially w/kids around.
Piton Ron - thanks!
And yes, ammo is a very important part of the gun. I have a box of high-quality ammo (Winchester Silvertip) that is strictly 'just in case.' I bought the box, took it to the range, and fired 5 or 10 rounds (function firing).
I use (centerfire) ammo I reload myself for all other practice, plinking, and competition shooting. A second gun in .22 cal. is a fantastic way to practice. There are numerous .22 pistols to choose from and most .22 ammo is inexpensive.
As to the original question, a gun should be the very last means of protection in your home. A burglar system, a dog, good neighbors and good locks should come on the list before the gun. As with anything else, you get out of it what you put into it. Practice at least once a month or two months.
If I remember correctly the first shot fired in self-defense (by a civilian) usually hits the floor about 7 feet in front of them. Your NRA course teacher will explain how to overcome the first-shot blues and can answer most any gun-related questions.
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Shack
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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I gotta agree with RonO there.
CarCamper has his sh#t dialed in.
I too was an NRA Pistol instructor.
Just like most mechanical things you plan on operating,
you should get proper instruction before use and practice until your proficient with it or you might end up hurting
yourself or others.
Like driving a car, using a power saw or any power tool,
even chopping with an axe, setting climbing pro, etc.
Tools are only as dangerous as the person operating them.
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Ouch!
climber
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Years ago, in Montana, we had a small gun club. Mainly so we could buy hunting and reloading supplies wholesale. One night a traveling NRA Rep came to our meeting. He got all pissed when we wanted to talk about hunting and fishing. It sounded to me like this nutcase hinted at stockpiling guns for a time when the government did something he didn't like. All he talked about was military crap. Several of us quit the NRA that night. All we wanted to do was go hunting.... and not for people.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Arete, I knew you had a wicked sense of humor, but the "first boat over"? You're a Viking?
That could explain A LOT!
Actually I'm a first generation american. Mother was dutch, my father was born in Berlin but grew up in Buenos Aires.
You mistakenly called me Piton Pete. Alas he has passed on. I only wish that Pete Schoening could join our conversation as the two of us spent hours talking firearms.
A few years back I was talking to David Roberts at an AAC meeting about his new book. He had Kit Carson buying .44 "cartridges" at Bent's Fort in 1854. Had to explain a little history to him (first bored through cylinder was 1857, then only in .22 and .32 rimfire). Roberts said,"I should have called you to find out about that."
I said, "Hell you should have called HIM." and clapped Pete on the shoulder as he was talking to others a few feet away.
I feel I have to take issue with "token" function testing.
One of the reasons that I like Hydrashocks is that they come in boxes of fifty. I put several hundred through an auto and require it to cycle flawlessly before I assign it online status as a combat weapon. Often enough this is preceded by a break in period with factory ball ammo.
But there are other excellent brands and types of combat ammo. My Seecamp has never failed to eat a Silvertip but has a recoil so vicious I had to test it a little at a time. My stock of Black Talon is down to a few hundred rounds so I save it for the weapons already tested. Golden Saber seems pretty good also.
Perhaps the nastiest ammo I keep is for the twelve bore. Anybody out there familiar with Shatterdiscs? How about a "poor man's slug"? (Take a standard birdshot round, open it up and glue most of the pellets together and reclose it. Now go out and see what damage you can do...)
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CarCamper
climber
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Ouch - That "NRA" guy was a dork. I've never heard of a travelling rep. We teach Gun Safety. Then how to shoot. Then how to buy and keep one. We usually don't mention politics other than the NRA is extremely vital in helping us keep our rights. I don't have the exact numbers, of course, but it's something like 30-40% of Americans own at least one firearm. That's a lot of people; if they were all NRA members, none of us would have too much to worry about re: Constitution and the 2nd Amendment.
Piton Ron - You're right about breaking in a firearm that you're going to use for self-defense. I lost count at approx. 3000 rnds thru my 9mm. I know what works and what doesn't in that particular pistol, so when I said I only fired 5-10 rounds, it was because I already knew they would work. Every couple of years I burn thru the box and buy another one. Then I'll take that box to the range and fire 5-10 more.
For the beginner gun owner, as Shack mentioned earlier, you gotta know what you're doing - especially if you're going to rely on it to save your life (whether it's guns, cars, or climbing equip.) - and that means Instruction and Practice.
I hope we haven't scared off the original poster.
For me personally, I started shooting 'cuz it was fun. Wasn't til later that I got into competition shooting, teaching and reloading. It was never about carrying a gun or having one to protect myself. It was fun! (Still is.)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I think we've scared off a lot more than just the original poster.
And we haven't even gone into the rules of firearm safety like:
Guns and alcohol don't mix so always finish your drink before you reach for a gun.
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Ouch!
climber
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I heard of a person who was shot in the t'aint.
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Watusi
Social climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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OUCH!
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Dell
Trad climber
New Paltz, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2005 - 11:02am PT
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"I hope we haven't scared off the original poster."
scared? This is hilarious! Who would have thought a bunch of gun nuts could be so much fun?
believe it or not, but you guys actually helped shed light on this issue for me and even helped resolve it. Short answer: no gun.
We do have a dog -- a big shepherd mutt who barks at everyone who drives up the road. We do have neighbors we enjoy and trust. But at the end of the day, keeping an unloaded gun locked in a safe doesn't seem to be a quickly accessible weapon against an intruder. And because of the kids, it would be unloaded and locked. Always.
And I'm not interested in shooting Budweiser cans (Sam Adams bottles maybe but that's just because I would get to empty them) or doing target practice on the local squirrel population. I'm not interested in toting a gun to the crag. I had wanted a gun for one thing, and it now appears that it might not be as simple as I envisioned it to be. I'm glad I asked.
cheers
Dell
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arete
Trad climber
Estes Park, Colorado
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"Guns and alcohol don't mix so always finish your drink before you reach for a gun."
Yes -- its like climbing and alcohol. One should never drink while climbing due to the very high risk of spilling your drink. One should only drink prior to climbing.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Ah, the Viking is back.
I've thought about putting horns on my climbing helmet and keeping draws on them for clipping in the middle of cruxes. Does that work well?
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arete
Trad climber
Estes Park, Colorado
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No, they tend to fall off whenever I take those forty footers well below the crux. Clip them to your sword scabard and keep your battle axe handy.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Ah hah! You ARE a Viking!
Now I understand the neighbor thing.
But half my lineage is Russian and we're Vikings too.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Perhaps the nastiest ammo I keep is for the twelve bore. Anybody out there familiar with Shatterdiscs? How about a "poor man's slug"? (Take a standard birdshot round, open it up and glue most of the pellets together and reclose it. Now go out and see what damage you can do...)
Actualy there's no good reason to do that. At likely self defense distances the pattern isn't likely to open up more than 3-6 inches even with a cylinder bore and #9 soft shot.
Do it wrong and you could blow up your barrel, or worse breach and loose some body parts. Although that's an unlikely outcome, it is well within the realm of possibility if you got a little careless with the glue. Don't experiment with the internal ballistics untill you really know what you are doing!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. OBVIOUSLY don't overdo it with the glue, but when I conducted experiments on a partially rotten log the tissue disruption results were impressive.
Have you got something against Shatterdiscs?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Have you got something against Shatterdiscs?
They just pattern a little to tight to bust clay birds. That makes 'em a single purpose round.
I've always thought that the answer to tagers and graffiti was to declare them a "game bird" under the state hunting laws. Then it would be legal to hunt them with 7 1/2 and smaller shot.
That wouldn't kill 'em at normal ranges, just would make them look like James Earl Olmos.
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David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
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Dell, I think you came to the right decision for you: No gun.
I grew up with guns, shooting, and hunting. I have and keep several guns (but none for defense). My whole family has lots of guns of many descriptions. My grandfather was a gun designer (Remington firing mechanisms; also designed the Nelson Gun Control, which was designed for WWI aircraft; Fokker designed the German one), so I am very much biased in favor of guns. However...
Guns are intrinsically dangerous. Not bad, but you need to know a lot to use them safely. Unless a person has a lot of experience with guns and uses them on a regular basis, guns are a pretty big step. It takes too much time and effort for a gun virgin to get the knowledge and familiarity with guns to make the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. If you really want to put in the time, they are a lot of fun. But it is somewhat like leading in climbing: it is a lot more dangerous and takes a lot more skill to do than following.
Carefully ask yourself, why you want a gun. You did, and answered for safety for the family, in part because you live in a rural area. (Urban dwellers are just as much in need of security, so the rural part does not add much emphasis, IMHO.)
If you want something for protection for the family, a much safer and more effective, always available option, that does not need to be locked up, won't kill someone accidentally, (as well as more fun), is a good dog. You got that, so I would bet you are covered.
The one additional thing that a dog does not cover is the "gun-proof your kid" concept. Great comments above on that issue. I think it is good to show them a gun, let them handle it (unloaded, obviously) to get the heft of it, get some of the novelty out, then teach them the danger. I have shown my guns to my two daughters, let them shoot them. They need to know what a gun is and what it can do. That way, if they find one sometime, hopefully the lesson will keep them away and alive. Another thing, teach them to run home if any one of their friends ever starts to touch or handle a gun, and immediately tell an adult. Goes for school as well. (We lose too many kids this way.)
Just my two cents.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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The gun proofing the kid, concept can't be overemphasized. Afterall, they've grown up with the TV conception that, You get shot, and get right back up.
The very first round my now grown kid shot was out of my 9.
One round chambered
no earplugs
Target, a gallon milk jug full of water
A sober explanation that the exploding milk jug paralleled the result on a human head
Reality sets in.
15 or so years later, there's at least one towel head that owes his life to that little demo. (The guy wasn't a threat, just an idiot, but probably would be dead if in front of someone that didn't understand the consequences of the next few miliseconds.)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Parenting is the most critical element of a successful culture.
My compliments.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Why no mention of a baseball bat for home protection?? Nothing more satisfying then "going yard" on a home intruder with a 34 ounce Louisville Slugger !!
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