Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
DJS
Trad climber
|
|
Bluering and Dirtbag- Educate me on why that is a negative position.
Meeting with POTUS doesn't give you a free pass to Heaven with 500 million virgins or allow you to reach Nirvana without meditation... wtf is so special about it that "withholding" a meeing is a good thing?
Edit to add: I really have been at a loss as to why this has been given so much weight in defining Obama's character in a negative way.
|
|
bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
|
|
djs, i explained why it's a bad idea...just agreeing to the meeting would boost the little terrorist's influence and give him the upper hand in any negotiations...meanwhile, all the other petty little despots around the world will realize they can go rogue, too...and, what's obama going to do? go in there and say, "shape up or we'll start kickin' ass"? isn't that what W is saying? and you hate W and think he's taken the wrong approach...so what's left for obama except kissin' ass?
kennedy's willingness to meet kruschev was seen by the soviets as weakness so kruschev could go into the meeting from a position of power because he had nothing to lose
and, answer the question...if it's such a good idea, why does obama keep backpedaling?
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
By meeting with another head of state you give them status...good status. Carter did this indirectly.
You cannot meet with another head of state when they're in defiance of the global community and expect them to negotiate further. They take it as justificatian and validation for their defiant stance. You punish their defiance, not reward it by a visit by VIP's. The VIP's go in when there's compliance.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Oct 10, 2008 - 02:21am PT
|
"If you want to make peace, you don't talk to your friends. You talk to your enemies. Moshe Dayan Israeli general & politician (1915 - 1981)"
Regarding Churchill. Perhaps the right guy at the right time, but ironically, both Churchill and Gorbachev were voted down by their own people after their time in the limelight was finished.
Go figure
Peace
Karl
|
|
bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
|
|
|
Oct 10, 2008 - 06:31am PT
|
nothing ironic about it, karl...just the fickleness of the demos...read Troublesome Young Men; not sure churchill would have been a great peace time leader...his legacy would be even greater had he voluntarily stepped down (a la cincinnatus and washington)
and nobody is saying we shouldn't talk to iran...you really believe nobody is talking to them? the point is that our pres should not talk to the little terrorist
here's a thought...granted that carter had the very best intentions, but do you think the world was made a better place by treating arafat like a legit head of state?
|
|
raymond phule
climber
|
|
|
Oct 10, 2008 - 09:42am PT
|
"the point is that our pres should not talk to the little terrorist"
Just curious, what terrorist attacks have the little terrorist been part of?
I don't know enough about Iran but it is clear that the rhetoric is very much against the US but what have they actually done in practice?
It seems like the terrorists actually performing terrorists attack came from other countries.
I also remember a picture of Rumsfeld shaking hand with the big terrorist Saddam. I guess it must have been photoshoped.
|
|
raymond phule
climber
|
|
|
Oct 10, 2008 - 09:48am PT
|
"granted that carter had the very best intentions, but do you think the world was made a better place by treating arafat like a legit head of state?"
I don't know but do you think the world was made a better place by treating Israel as a state that are allowed to do whatever they want against the Palestinian people?
The only thing that might solve the Israel Palestine issue is that people talk to each other and treat each other like humans.
|
|
bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
|
|
|
Oct 10, 2008 - 09:57am PT
|
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/06/30/iran.president/index.html
there's also the infusion of weapons and militia fighters into iraq...support for sadr and his attempts to destabilize iraq...safe harbor for bomb makers that have helped kill american troops
and, yes, roosevelt and churchill shook hands with stalin...at one time, saddam was an "ally" against iran
israel was created by the un in an area where there was no state...there's never been a palestinian state at any point in history...plenty of arabs/muslims decided to stay in the newly founded israel where they prospered as citizens of the state
i agree that the israelis are not entirely innocent but the claim that they have been allowed to do "whatever they want" is just idiotic...every time the israelis have made a good will effort to achieve peace, their efforts have been met with continued violence...the palestinians said get out of gaza; the israelis got out of gaza; the palestinians continued to launch rockets FROM GAZA
|
|
raymond phule
climber
|
|
|
Oct 10, 2008 - 10:09am PT
|
"i agree that the israelis are not entirely innocent but the claim that they have been allowed to do "whatever they want" is just idiotic...every time the israelis have made a good will effort to achieve peace, their efforts have been met with continued violence...the palestinians said get out of gaza; the israelis got out of gaza; the palestinians continued to launch rockets FROM GAZA"
I have a friend from the Gaza strip. Why don't you plan your next vacation on the Gaza strip so you can see how it is there?
How fast did the Israeli people actually leave the gasa strip when asked? Why did they where there in the first place?
Are your heros going to leave the west bank soon? I am sure that the palestinians, a lot of other people included the UN (if I remember correctly) have asked them?
"are not entirely innocent"
You surprise me. What are your guess, 99.9% the fault of the palestinians maybe?
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Oct 10, 2008 - 10:30am PT
|
BW wrote
"here's a thought...granted that carter had the very best intentions, but do you think the world was made a better place by treating arafat like a legit head of state?"
Arafat actually DID become a legit head of state at a later date and the world DID become a better place after Carter treated him as such because it opened doors for the Palestinians to get their case heard without resorting to violence. The acceptance of Israel by Palestinians (and visa-versa) came closer.
And, don't have a double standard, many of Israel's leaders, such as Begin and Sharon, started out as REAL terrorist striking at the British to get them out of Israel before 1948. For real. We didn't have a problem talking to them.
Peace
Karl
|
|
bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
|
|
|
Oct 10, 2008 - 11:18am PT
|
"without resorting to violence"
oh, karl...
|
|
raymond phule
climber
|
|
|
Oct 10, 2008 - 11:29am PT
|
Those Israeli people could be considered as Saints because they left the gasa strip when asked. They only occupied the area for 27 years until 1994. Then didn't it take more than 11 years before they "left" the Gasa strip in 2005. Only 36 years since they where asked to leave. Thats pretty good.
If we can talk about leaving at all.
"However, according to the Oslo Accords, Israel retains control of air space, territorial waters, offshore maritime access, the population registry, entry of foreigners, imports and exports as well as the tax system.[14]"
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Oct 10, 2008 - 11:42am PT
|
Three kinds of Republicans I'm seeing on supertopo these days
1. Lurkers who don't post but like low taxes and were "raised Republican" Haven't given political philosophy deep thought often, like folks who adopt the religion of their parents.
2. Guys like Fatty who know politics is dirty and don't care about those who are hurt because it's that kinda world. He sees through the Hannity foolishness but knows the "smart people" have to bring the masses around with Nascar Mob psychology.
3. Guys like Bookworm who have drunk the kool aid and bought the talking points without critical review. Invested in a view that came from somebody else and can't see beyond it.
4. Guys (this is a GOP thread so I don't have to be politically correct and write guys/women) who believe in conservative values like government out of our business and fiscal responsibility and vote GOP as a conditioned response even though they practice none of the above. They know third parties don't work in our system and can't break free from the skeleton of the GOP enough to see that the DEM's offer just as much fiscal responsibility these days.
5. Other's, mainly, it's all about the money and the GOP promises low taxes, end of story, my vote is bought.
6. There's always exceptions to every stupid list.
7. Yes, democrats, especially Pelosi and Reid, suck too! They just do so in a less corrupt and violent way.
Peace
karl
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Oct 10, 2008 - 11:58am PT
|
Fatty
If I lived in SF. I'd vote for Cindy Sheehan (qualified or not) to punish Pelosi for being a sellout wimp
But don't run for office fatty. Problem is, once you have enough money to run for office, you've done enough hinky deals to look bad if they open the books on you
peace
karl
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
|
Oct 10, 2008 - 11:59am PT
|
Bookworm posted; "israel was created by the un in an area where there was no state...there's never been a palestinian state at any point in history...plenty of arabs/muslims decided to stay in the newly founded israel where they prospered as citizens of the state".
There is not one truth in that rhetorical propaganda.
What else do you believe? The world is flat? The Earth is the center of the Universe? Man and dinosaurs coexisted?
Why don't you book a vacation to Gaza and/or the West Bank to see for yourself?
|
|
bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
|
|
|
Oct 10, 2008 - 12:19pm PT
|
"not one truth in that rhetorical propaganda"
so, israel wasn't created by the un?
karl, why is the "most ethical congress, ever" refusing to call hearings on fannie and freddie? why are indicted dems still holding their committee chairs? why won't pelosi hire union workers at her winery even though her voting record is 100% in support of unions? of course, i could go on, but, like you, i agree that most of congress is corrupt regardless of party afiliation
i am interested in knowing what flavor of kool aid i'm allegedly drinking
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
|
Oct 10, 2008 - 12:31pm PT
|
Bookworm- Because they don't want to self-incriminate. There is no doubt that the Dems bear quite a bit of culpability regarding the Fannie/Freddie situation, however the Repubs didn't see fit to hold hearings back when something actually could have been done. Hearings now would serve basically to lay blame. It's politically convenient for Repubs to demand hearings now that the damage is done, but not when they had the power to do so.
In any case, this is a bipartisan failure and trying to pretend that anyone's hands are clean is dishonest.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Oct 10, 2008 - 07:51pm PT
|
"so, israel wasn't created by the un? "
Nope, the UN proposed a state of Israel within much smaller borders but the state of Israel unilaterally declared itself independent all on it's own. That led immediately to the war in 1948 where the territory expanded dramatically and 700,000 Palestinians were ejected from the declared new state. (some claim they just decided to leave their homes and property all by themselves but then, some who did that were massacred so there was some incentive)
Peace
karl
|
|
bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
|
|
|
Oct 10, 2008 - 08:25pm PT
|
come on high, surely by now you've seen/heard the tapes of barney and company declaring, "there is no crisis" way back in 2003 when W tried to reign in fannie/freddie and again in 2005 when mccain brought it up in the senate...certainly, i agree that the repubs could/should have done more, but there's no denying the dems killed the efforts...and what are the dems doing in the hearings now except trying to fix blame...if they're going to call the ceos of aig, bear/stearns, etc, why not fannie and freddie...and how can they "self-incriminate" if they're not guilty? or do you admit their culpability (as part of "the most ethical congress ever") but don't care if they get away with it just because they're dems?
"In the face of increasing violence, the British handed the issue over to the United Nations. The result was Resolution 181, a partition plan to divide Palestine between Jews and Arabs. The Jewish state was to receive around 56% of the land area of Mandate Palestine, encompassing 82% of the Jewish population, though it would be separated from Jerusalem, designated as an area to be administered by the UN. The plan was accepted by most of the Jewish population, but rejected by much of the Arab populace. On 29 November 1947, the plan was put to a vote in the United Nations General Assembly. The result was 33 to 13 in favour of the plan, with 10 abstentions. The Arab countries (all of which had opposed the plan) proposed to query the International Court of Justice on the competence of the General Assembly to partition a country against the wishes of the majority of its inhabitants, but were again defeated. The division was to take effect on the date of British withdrawal from the territory (15 May 1948), though the UK refused to implement the plan, arguing it was unacceptable to both sides."
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
|
Oct 10, 2008 - 09:02pm PT
|
W believed in an "ownership society" and advocated for this crap as much as anybody. I can tell you right now that my house was bought under relaxed terms that wouldn't fly after all of this was done, and it was the best thing that ever happened to me financially. There is nothing cut and dry about this situation, and no one clear failure. Fannie and Freddie are getting the most attention from conservatives because they think that is where the Dems are the most vulnerable.
Also, bookworm, when the only venue that allows Palestinians to be heard is through violence then that is what they will choose. You can't leverage people to choose other options without actually GIVING THEM OTHER OPTIONS.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!