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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 10, 2006 - 03:05am PT
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Enough of this. Let's hit on what FDR knew or should have known about Pearl Harbor. Then let's go after Custer; he knew the injuns were aout there, very curious for sure. Oh, and the Tonkin Gulf; that should keep us going for awhile.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Nov 10, 2006 - 03:05am PT
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No really Snooky, what should President Bush have done to prevent our being attacked?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 10, 2006 - 03:07am PT
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Lois wrote
"Well, Karl, there is never any harm to checking anything out but I think on this one (conspiracy theory) you are barking up an improbable tree. I think it is a classic case of seeking complex explanations for given phenomenon when a more simple one will do, as well. "
What are you talking about Lois. I'm not talking about 9-11, I'm talking about Iraq and there is a LOT of evidence that the administration knew that it wasn't an looming WMD threat. It's far from conspiracy theory. I believe it's nearly proved but Bush has been protected by a sheep-like congress.
It's not a complicated explanation. We're going to run short on oil. Bush is an Oil man. Iraq has major oil reserves. Saddam was an unpopular dictator who was totally toothless after a decade of sanctions. Those idiots thought they could roll in, ditch Saddam and be heros with the Iraqi people and get a great deal on oil, a better place for their mid-east military bases (cause Bin Laden wanted us out of Saudi Arabia and we complied).
They hoped when the rest of the Arab world saw how we kissed Iraq's ass, they'd cooperate with us. Cheney, when asked why he invaded Iraq, said, "Because it was doable."
We didn't invade Iraq because it was a threat. We invaded because it wasn't. The Downing Street memos make this clear.
Lois, why do I waste me time writing for you? Do you even know what the Downing Street memos were? Do you know what Ambassador Wilson said after visiting Nigeria and what Bush said in his state of the Union address anyway after it was clearly contradicted in advance? Why don't state some facts to back up your statement?
Who knows what Bush knew or didn't know about 9-11? We do know that he publically claimed to have seen video of the first plane hitting the tower on TV before he entered the classroom to read "my pet goat" He said "I thought, that must have been a very bad pilot!" Since no video was available before that time, we know he was mistaken or lying. Since he made that statement right way, It's hard to imagine him being mistaken. Why did he say that? I don't know. It's a conspiracy theory no matter what happened on 9-11. I want answers but am not making accusations.
I AM making those accusations regarding Iraq. Don't say it's "conspiracy theory" unless you have facts to back up your own theory that he was just a truthful idiot that thought Iraq was about to attack with WMDs anyday if we didn't abandon Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan and attack Iraq even though WMD inspectors were on the ground, getting good access, and not finding anything.
Peace
Karl
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snooky
climber
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Nov 10, 2006 - 03:12am PT
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No really Chaz, get a clue. What he should have done was to pay attention to the endless stream of intelligence reports that said Al Qaeda was going to highjack airliners and use them as weapons and perhaps fly them into high value targets.
Karl, a memo was given to Bush and it made its way around the administration that said to the effect that airliners would be used for some sort of attack and perhaps into buildings. As a matter of fact the same warnings came about during the Clinton administration so there had been a protocol put into place and this was ignored by Bush and others.
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2006 - 03:12am PT
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Go Karl.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Nov 10, 2006 - 03:16am PT
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Snooky writes:
"I know your stupid but give it a try "
That should be "you're", Mensa!
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Nov 10, 2006 - 03:31am PT
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I am old enough to remember a time before 9-11-01.
There is no way the American people would have gone along with having the airports "shut down" for even one day, let alone the several months it would have taken to prevent our being attacked.
Hell, we wouldn't put up with it TODAY!
So how about telling us, realisticly what could have been done to prevent our being attacked?
Using Snooky "Logic" we should "shut down" all the roads and highways in America because about 40,000 people die on the roads every year. That's like a "September 11" every month, every year.
What would have worked, without inconviencing ANY Americans, is to send every Muslim who is not an American Citizen back to where they came from the day President Bush took office.
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snooky
climber
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Nov 10, 2006 - 03:44am PT
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There is no way the American people would have gone along with having the airports "shut down" for even one day, let alone the several months it would have taken to prevent our being attacked.
Bullsh#t, the airports were closed down for days after 911 and people put up with it.
Inconvenience is a must when public safety is concerned. And as far as highway death is concerned we are talking about terror not car crashes.
Chaz you are a moron and maybe you forget the meds tonight but responding to you is laughable. If you read the 911 report you can read many things that the Bush administration ignored that could have made a difference. On page 206 there are footnotes that lead the memo about warning that Ms.Rice called historical in nature before congress. But they vividly warn of attack with aircraft against high value targets. Now if you as dumb as Chaz you can't read footnotes, oh well.
The bottom line is Bush received and ignored advanced warning of a plan by Al Qaeda to highjack passenger planes and fly them into buildings. People like Chaz are in denial and that is why they have a lame duck hero as Presnit. The Chaz types are the extremely lame minority of people that can't seem to get the fact that Bush was asleep at the wheel...duhhh Chaz.
Now as far as sending all Muslins to ??? that statement alone points out what an ignorant person you are. Now I understand i am trading comments with a bigot.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Nov 10, 2006 - 03:52am PT
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Snooky writes:
"you are stupid and can't use Google and read the 911 report"
And you know this how?
I have a copy of the 9-11 report in front of me.
Please tell me on what number page I can find where it says President Bush should "shut down" the airports.
Snooky writes:
"Now as far as sending all Muslins to ??? that statement alone points out what an ignorant person you are. Now I understand i am trading comments with a bigot."
Besides not knowing the difference between "your", "yore", and "you're" until I educated him about an hour ago, Snooky has never read The United States Constitution.
If he had read The Constitution, and possessed even average reading comprehension skills, he would have seen Article 1 Section 8, which gives Congress the Power "To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization".
"ALL Muslims who are not citizens go home" sounds pretty "uniform" to me.
Would have worked too.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Nov 10, 2006 - 04:53am PT
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That's not what page 206 of my copy of the 9/11 Commission Report says.
In case you think I'm bullshitting about having a copy in front of me, here it is, sitting on top of this morning's L.A. Times:
Try again!
EDIT: Snooky has deleted multiple posts from this thread.
Can't say I blame him!
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Blight
Social climber
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Nov 10, 2006 - 05:44am PT
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Didn't OBL 'fess up to the dark deed?
The US government said their troops "found" a tape of Osama Bin Laden confessing to the 9/11 attacks in Jalalabad after the invasion.
Bin laden himself said before the tape was "found" that he had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks. The person in the "found" tape (because that's the sort of thing Bin Laden would just leave lying around - "hey Yusef! What did I do with that tape of me confessing to the worst terrorist atrocities in human history? I left it in the guest house? DAMN!") doesn't look anything like Bin Laden.
So who is it really and who made the tape? Well, anyone can guess that.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Nov 10, 2006 - 09:07am PT
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Here's my two cents...
What kind of idiot reads a book upside?
Of course, on the other hand, somebody who CAN read a book upside down may actually have some intelligence.
But that sure ain't me. I flipped my monitor upside down and couldn't read any of this thread.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Nov 10, 2006 - 09:40am PT
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woodcraft,
It's a whole bunch of structural engineers and materials scientists that are saying that the plane crash and fire caused the towers to fall. Personally I believe those guys, as that is their area of expertise, more than I believe a BYU astronomy professor.
The reason why the building pancaked so quickly has a lot to do with mass and momemtum. Once one floor failed, you suddenly had incredibly large amounts of weight falling onto lower floors. The support columns were designed to hold static loads, not massive dynamic impacts.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 10, 2006 - 11:01am PT
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"Can you imagine what would have happened today if Bush attempted to seal any evidence garnered in an investigation of say 9/11. "
He totally has! They call it "National Security" and nobody says boo.
Lois, there's obvious a huge difference between Clinton's blow job and Bush's blowing up job which cost hundreds of thousands of lives including plenty of Americans. Did you know the US spent about 130 million dollars on Saddam's trial?
Peace
Karl
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flyxc
Trad climber
Otisfield, Maine
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Nov 10, 2006 - 11:05am PT
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Here are two great refutations of the 9-11 conspiracy.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/11818067/the_low_post_the_hopeless_stupidity_of_911_conspiracies
http://www.buffalobeast.com/109/murrah_redux.htm
From the last paragraph
"There's not a whole lot of difference, psychologically, between Sean Hannity's followers believing liberals to be the same as terrorists, and 9/11 Truthers believing even the lowest soldier or rank-and-file FAA or NORAD official to be a cold-blooded mass murderer. In both cases you have to be far gone enough into your private world of silly tribal bullshit that the concept of "your fellow citizen" has ceased to have any meaning whatsoever. It may be that America has become too big and complicated for most people to deal with being part of. People are longing for a smaller, stupider reality. Some, like Bush, sell a prepackaged version. Others just make theirs up out of thin air. God help us"
Fun reading!!
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woodcraft
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2006 - 11:07am PT
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Try this experiment:
The NIST report says that the core columns were caused to "displace downward from plasticity and high creep strains in high stress and high temperatures".
Find a chain-link fence post imbedded in the ground that is 3 or 6 or whatever feet high. This will represent the 47 core columns.
Stack concrete blocks on the post, 500, or 1000, or 2000 pounds. This represents the weight of the building.
Measure the height of the post.
Invite all your friends to bring propane torches. This will represent the fire induced high temps. Jet fuel is basically kerosene- think of a kerosene lamp with the wick up-smoky flame, like is seen in the twin towers, so propane should provide higher potential heat.
Have everyone train the torches on the post- thirty or more would be good. (careful). Start the timekeeping.
Torch the loaded post until the fuel runs out. Use more fuel if desired. Really heat
that thing!
Hit the post with hammers to represent shock loads. (careful)
Measure the downward displacement from plasticity and high creep strains.
Calculate the elapsed time for the column to become 6" high.
Review official story, and think about it.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 10, 2006 - 11:37am PT
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OK, all you Official Conspiracy Theorists (OCTers) who are apologists for the Bush Crime Family (BCF) and the Neo-con Rethug Administration, pull your heads out of your a**es since we aren't buying it anymore.
We 9-11 Truthers (CTers) know that they 9-11 MIHOPed the whole thing. The amount of evidence that demonstrates means, motive, and opportunity and the vast amount of physical evidence in the form of actual wreckage that has been tested and where Dr. Jones has found Thermite/Thermate residue, and 9-11 dust being analyzed finding explosive residue throughout is without question. The shear volume of photographic and video evidence, and the personal eye-witness testimonies from the fire-men, police officers, and rescue workers is over whelming and it all says and points to 9-11 was an inside job.
For anyone to think for a moment that 19 Islamic hi-jackers with box-cutter knives could pull-off 9-11 and make NORAD stand-down . . . then what mind altering hallucinagenics are you snorting?
9-11 Truth Seekers (CTers) are in very good company:
Senior Military, Intelligence, and Government Officials Question 9/11 Commission Report
http://www.wanttoknow.info/officialsquestion911commissionreport
Try calling them nuts or crazy.
9/11 Statement Signed by 100 Prominent Americans
http://www.wanttoknow.info/911statement
Wake-up and smell the MIHOP or you will be the last to know on the face of the Earth. Get educated and learn something . . .
The films I would watch and the order I would watch them in:
Aaron Russo's "America: Freedom to Fascism" authorized version:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4312730277175242198&sourceid=docidfeed&hl=en-AU
Terror Storm with Alex Jones (video)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5792753647750188322
9/11 Mysteries (video)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003
Loose Change, 2nd Edition (Recut)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501
9/11: A Conversation with Jim Fetzer (video)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=590053292130233240
I don't believe in the death penalty. Try them all in an International Court of Law, find who is responsible or went along with the plan, convict them all, give them all multiple life-time sentences and throw the keys away forever. Let them rot in a Gitmo like prison, and have a taste of their own medicine.
Let it be so.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 10, 2006 - 11:38am PT
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Of all the thread joints in all the world, why do so many idiots have to come into ours?
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Nov 10, 2006 - 11:44am PT
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Woody...I'ma comin' ta Jtree in a few weeks, and I suggest you better make sure you don't git stuck with me on the beelay end o yer rope....I'll wait til you're at the cruxiest section of crux and....shortrope you until you beg - BEG, I say - beg to be forgiven for all your impudence here against the fair SuperTacoers Against Bush (STAB).
Watch out - I'm comin to git Ya!!!
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Nov 10, 2006 - 11:46am PT
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Woodcraft,
Exactly what credentials do you have that make you think that experiment replicates the World Trade Center situation? Did you just guess at that? Or are you actually a structural engineer with experience in failure analysis?
Just because I can't make my paper airplane fly well with a plastic army man sitting in it doesn't mean that there aren't passenger jets flying around carrying hundreds of people.
And exactly who has claimed that support columns were vertically compressed to 6"?
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