Indian Creek fatality

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List

This thread has been locked

Messages 61 - 80 of total 92 in this topic

<< First | < Previous | Show All | Next > | Last >>

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Mar 17, 2016 - 06:51am PT

Surviving oneself in this world is not easy to do whether it's sports, driving, working or just breathing. I've lost friends in otherwise seemingly innocent and innocuous ways you could never foresee. Please tread carefully with great resolve paying attention to the details - the common and uncommon alike.

My condolences.

ddriver

Trad climber

SLC, UT

Mar 17, 2016 - 08:10am PT

But I agree with Bruce. Donini is right about base "chatter", but that is no excuse. This was a severe partner fail.

I have climbed enough in the desert, solo and with partners, to realize what an advantage a good partner is.

Agree with the Toker. Team sport = team failure.

Hey, your ends are down! That's all it takes, someone paying attention. There is no excuse for this.

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Mar 17, 2016 - 08:30am PT

Team sport = team failure.

Rappelling off an anchor is not a team sport. I agree with Toker that good partners = safety margin, but it's just 1 piece here.

The #1 error, IMO, is not matching the ends through the anchor, and that's on the victim here. He took a shortcut - it's a shortcut most of us have taken.

FWIW, add up a few 100 or maybe 1000 times matching ends on a rope with no middle mark, value your time, suddenly the extra money for a bipattern rope seems pretty cheap. They're all I buy these days. But that's just another of many pieces.

overwatch

climber

Arizona

Mar 17, 2016 - 08:45am PT

FWIW, add up a few 100 or maybe 1000 times matching ends on a rope with no middle mark, value your time, suddenly the extra money for a bipattern rope seems pretty cheap. They're all I buy these days. But that's just another of many pieces.

Man, I agree with that! As evidenced by this tragedy, time is our most precious commodity.

Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber

Old and Broken Down in Appalachia

Mar 17, 2016 - 08:48am PT

I am very sorry

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Mar 17, 2016 - 09:43am PT

So sad. With 30 years of experience, he comes from an era, as many of us do, when no one knotted the ends of the rap lines or used any kind of third hand backup.

I've got thousands of rappels under my belt as well, very few with the modern precautions. But the evidence for knots in the end of the rope, regardless of the resulting heightened snagging potential, is becoming conclusive, as there has been a terrible and sadly ongoing toll for climbers whose ropes have somehow become uneven, and experience is evidently no buttress against this type of occurrence.

Gunkie

Trad climber

Valles Marineris

Mar 17, 2016 - 10:49am PT

...ropes have somehow become uneven...

I'm sure you know, rappelling with one 11mm and one 9mm will cause the fat end to pull more than the skinny end. I almost went off the deep end when this occurred rappelling down First Trapps Chimney and one end was way shorter than the other and, or course, we had no back-up knot.

I've been trying back-up knots ever since. And I put the knot on the skinny side of the rap anchor, too, which helps a lot.

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Mar 17, 2016 - 11:05am PT

when no one knotted the ends of the rap lines or used any kind of third hand backup.

Uh, I always tied knots in the end if I couldn't see where I was going.
And one thing I learned from Uncle Fred is to always have a couple of
Prussics in yer pocket. If I rapped into some serious unknown I often
put the Prussic on. It took 30 seconds, if that. Phuk all that mechanical
sh!t.

Pre-rappel I do as a pilot does - touch the checklist gauges/items and
say what it reads, OUT LOUD. Buckle-check, anchors-check, rope properly
threaded-check, ATC properly attached-check.

m_jones

Trad climber

Carson City, NV

Mar 17, 2016 - 11:17am PT

Be really aware if one end of a rope is caught in a flake or even piled on a ledge as was apparently the case here. The heavier side of the rope (the side going to the ground) can stop in the belay device and the light end (on the flake or ledge) will keep running through the ATC. It happened to me and it still feels like the ropes are both running through the device if you are not closely paying attention. When I stopped at the ledge to free the rope, that end was nowhere close to the ground and I started with the middle mark at the anchor with plenty of one side of the rope on the ground. Kind of spooked me.

Just because both ends were on the ground at the start of the rappel does not mean they still will be when 30 feet above the ground.

A knot would solve this problem as would attentive partners on the ground. The reality is no one really would tie knots in the rope when you "know" the ends are on the ground or will reach even though one end is hung up.

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Mar 17, 2016 - 11:28am PT

Hey Brian,

Your friend Mark just took off his helmet for that beautiful photo on the RNWF of HD, right?

RIGHT?!

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Mar 17, 2016 - 11:41am PT

Reilly may have had the intelligence to regularly use rope-end knots, but no one I know did, and that would have included some big names in the climbing world BITD.

Quoted for emphasis. This is a silent killer for sure. I imagine friction conditions up at the anchor have to be very low for this to actually happen, but if it does, all the bad stuff happens after other checks about the middle being in the right place and the ends on the ground have reassured the rappeller. If you then don't see the short end coming, only a knot in the rope end will save you from this scenario.

Brian

climber

California

Mar 17, 2016 - 11:47am PT

Pete,

Actually, I think we both did have brain buckets that day, as this summit photo suggests. You can see my helmet on my harness, ready for the walk down the cables; I'm pretty sure Mark had one as well (which might be on his left hip, out of the picture, or in his small pack), though my old mind could be mistaken. The previous photo was taken on Big Sandy I think, while Micah Dash (RIP) was taking a free-climbing burn in the second Zig-Zag. After he was done with that burn, we passed and went on to the summit.

Just one of many great days with Mark.

Brian

EDIT: found another shot

overwatch

climber

Arizona

Mar 17, 2016 - 12:13pm PT

Great point, Mr. Jones, thanks

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Mar 17, 2016 - 12:48pm PT

Reilly talked of prussics, but people should know the Bachman, autoblock and kleimheist (which work better than prussics on a doubled ropes).

m_jones

Trad climber

Carson City, NV

Mar 17, 2016 - 12:57pm PT

Not as low of friction as I would have thought to have the side of the rope that was on the ground stop in the belay device. The rope was through two mussies at Owens River Gorge. The rope was a 9.8.

Kind of a standard top of a sport route kind of thing. I was rapping so as not to lower through them when cleaning the draws with how dirty ropes get there.

Ksolem

Trad climber

Monrovia, California

Mar 17, 2016 - 01:31pm PT

Two for Mr. Jones.

I've never had that happen, and it never would have occurred to me that it could.

As has been said again and again, we've all had close calls. I've had three, all while rappelling, each very different from the next.

Best wishes to everyone involved. A sad event for sure.

Charlie D.

Trad climber

Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra

Mar 17, 2016 - 03:52pm PT

Just because both ends were on the ground at the start of the rappel does not mean they still will be when 30 feet above the ground.

Amen Max, it happened to me years ago without knowing it could....I had a skinny rap rope with my lead rope. The lead rope being thicker and offering more resistance moved through the device at a slower rate than the skinny rap line. I was rapping high up on Sons of Yesterday, no knot (common back then) and I looked down.....OMG!

Again my heart goes out to those that loss so much.