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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Dec 29, 2015 - 03:17am PT
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well, not exactly as it says in the user's manual:
"DO NOT USE THE SILENT PARTNER IN SUB-FREEZING CONDITIONS. Frozen water in the clutch could prevent the Silent Partner from locking during a fall."
pretty perturbing that this appears to be happening not only in sub freezing temps, but also in cool temps that are above zero as well...
it seems a little hard to understand generally as, as someone mentioned above, we don't have to worry about our seat belts locking up when it's below freezing...
and so it seems a little hard to believe that the margins of error appear to have been allowed to be so fine on such a critical piece of equipment...
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 29, 2015 - 06:34am PT
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I don't think it works the same as a seatbelt mechanism
I know she has nothing to do with it anymore but I would be interested in Ekat's thoughts.
how about cooling it down and replicating the failure mode then loading it with a rope and test pulling it instead of spinning the drum by hand? even better would be to take a test fall over a crash pad or something. I tested mine the first time by finding a tree that I could rig to and jump out of easily, over a bouldering pad
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Da-Veed
Big Wall climber
Bigfork
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Dec 29, 2015 - 07:08am PT
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Personally I have soloed with a clove hitch, first wall solo. Then moved to a unmodified Gri Gri (first generation), which I used for many years. All the while my Silent partner went unused. It seemed too bulky and insecure. Then I was having a conversation with a worldly big wall badarz in Camp 4 and he convinced me of the dangers of soloing with a Gri Gri, so I started using the SP. I have soloed 3 wall on it including El Cap and have come to love my SP like no other partner, (except maybe Jen!).
I have fallen on it several times and it always caught my fall (60f+ days). The only weird thing I find is that I still carry my Gri Gri to do penji's, so essentially I am climbing with more stuff on me on lead, oh well. I feel much more secure on the SP than a Gri Gri, and that is all that matters to me.
Really though, like others have said, its all about your system and how you back yourself up. Just expect equipment to fail and mitigate those risks with back ups. And if someone does not know how to do that then they should probably not be soloing.
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2015 - 07:40am PT
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well, not exactly as it says in the user's manual:
"DO NOT USE THE SILENT PARTNER IN SUB-FREEZING CONDITIONS. Frozen water in the clutch could prevent the Silent Partner from locking during a fall."
pretty perturbing that this appears to be happening not only in sub freezing temps, but also in cool temps that are above zero as well...
Exactly this. I am so glad that someone else is also getting it.
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 29, 2015 - 07:48am PT
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we all get it... don't take the comments so personally. you are obviously conscientious in your approach or you wouldn't have uncovered the problem in the first place.
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2015 - 08:44am PT
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Update: I am returning it the item for inspection. RE is now replying very fast and helpfully.
I'll keep you updated, but this is going to take a long time before having any considering how long can shipping take to the US from here.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 29, 2015 - 11:36am PT
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"I used the soloist when I soloed.
Never backed it up nor even tied into the end.
I figured I'm just free soloing with this gear and it's only there as a psychological crutch. "
O'Really, Werner?
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Dec 29, 2015 - 12:00pm PT
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Never trust a Silent Partner. Everyone knows a decent partner should whisper things like send dude , or totally bomber bro
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Dec 29, 2015 - 12:36pm PT
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I have not used an SP but have used most other systems. After reading this I still want to get my hands on a SP. I am glad the thread was posted so I know what I am dealing with. But, I will say this, if the manual says it will fail at freezing temps there is no way I would use it at 5 degrees above freezing. That just seems to be cutting it a bit to close.
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2015 - 12:59pm PT
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What you are missing is, the manual mentions frozen water, when here there is no water involved and even if it were raining and if it were all wet, by no mean water can freeze at 5C.
So this is another issue. It could be related with the grease hardening, as someone suggested, or the bearings getting smaller, or god knows what mechanical problem, but it is NOT related to frozen water for sure.
We are talking about something very different from what's documented.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Dec 29, 2015 - 02:45pm PT
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I was left with fear, and went back to using an un-modified gri-gri for my aid soloing. I can see a clove and decide it is good. I can see and test a gri-gri to make sure it is good. I cannot see inside the drum, so having it fail to lock up ever was a no-go.
I had not exposed mine to water, ever. I was climbing in Jtree where it was cold, but pretty much dry as a bone. The whole "don't use it below freezing" is a giant red herring. The mechanism was supposed to be based off of what is inside a seatbelt, and those must work over all temperatures for decades.
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ecdh
climber
the east
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Dec 29, 2015 - 04:00pm PT
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Seems to me theres a broad margin of haze when it comes to the SP in the cold, that may start at about 5c give or take, so more complex than just water.. That said proper testing is needed as mentioned above (under load, with rope etc).
I also think whatever is trialled needs to be done in correlation with RE otherwise its too isolated. No doubt they have test data, and things need to be aligned with that. Also just out of respect for a company with the balls to offer such fringe gear.
As stated, just spinning it by hand isnt much of a test. Maybe the forces of a cloved rope are different enough to close the margin.....or not.
A body of us doing the fridge tests would be cool as an anecdotal survey that RE may take note of.
Id also contact andy kirkpatrick over this as hes vocal on the matter. jim Titt would be a good man to have on board too.
As a repository of data on the matter lets keep the quality for both users and RE.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 29, 2015 - 04:10pm PT
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It's not necessarily easy to predict the thermal behavior of lubricants in manufactured equipment such that you can say precise things about them unless they are truly precision systems with rigorous tolerances, testing and metrics.
The SP is a fine piece of gear, but it is not a precision instrument, but rather one designed to work in the margins and in the gray as are all mechanical belay devices. They all attempt to give us the best of both worlds - free running ropes when we want it and catches in a clutch when we need it. But we live (and die) in the real world where the 'best' isn't always what is meted out. And that isn't just climbing - there are any number of ways to play which depend upon equipment. And any time you play close to the edge where the margins are thin you better know what the hell you are doing, the limitations of your gear and be prepared to compensate for those limitations should you decide to test them.
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 30, 2015 - 05:15am PT
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Locker, did you give it a try?
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JLundeen
climber
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Dec 30, 2015 - 09:50am PT
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In light of this thread, anyone want to sell me their silent partner?
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 30, 2015 - 10:25am PT
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nothing on this thread makes me want to sell it
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 30, 2015 - 10:51am PT
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EKat how about commenting on the SP's similarity, if any, to the workings of a seat belt. I thought I recalled from previous threads that you said it was not the same?
Edit;
That is what I thought, thanks EKizzle
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Dec 30, 2015 - 11:19am PT
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Ekat, did you have some involvement in this invention? Just curious as to why people are asking for your input.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Dec 30, 2015 - 11:23am PT
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I did not miss what it says. I have done a bit of soloing and I am willing to accept risk. I have also done a fair amount of documentation and testing. It states freezing. I am not going to risk my life to a piece of equipment anywhere near a known documented failure point without doing some basic testing myself. It is not worth it.
Again I have been looking at these and have been trying to borrow one for quite some time to see if I like it. I was not aware of this failure mode before you posted up so I appreciate your post. I still want to try a SP. I just will not use it in the rain or when it is real cold. If I get a hold of one I will probably play around with it, a spreadsheet and a fridge just to have an idea of what I am dealing with. But, I am still more than willing to give one a try.
I would not risk using a SP anywhere near freezing just like I will not use my Soloist on a climb where I might flip upside down in a fall ( yes I am aware there is always the possibility of getting flipped upside down but I still use it ) the other thing I use is a Gri Gri which is not an approved solo belay device.
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