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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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Oct 25, 2006 - 07:34pm PT
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With all due respect Nate, the climbing companies are just companies.
The FAA oversees airline safety because there is a pressing public need for it, but in climbing, the need, and the money, is just not there for an independent oversight body.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Oct 25, 2006 - 07:45pm PT
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Jaybro wrote:
Lam, when I've climbed with Todd, or virtually anyone else, he/they don't tie into the belay loop.
When he belayed, was he using the belay loop, or did he pass the 'biner through the
main webbing and the leg-loop webbing like many (if not most) Old-Schoolers™ do?
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Oct 25, 2006 - 07:59pm PT
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It is said that the carabiner and belay device were still attached to the rope and the harness is missing the loop.
I would say he clipped the loop.
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lazide
Big Wall climber
Bay Area, CA
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Oct 25, 2006 - 09:19pm PT
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Hey Russ! Not sure if you are interested... I've been very impressed by the stuff you have done for the community re: the daisy chain stuff, and what you did for kate with her aliens and the rivet hangers.
I have a petzl calidris harness I currently use for the gym (2-3 nights a week, often lead falls) which previously has seen 3+ years outdoors, 500-800+ routes? but few falls. It is showing some signigant wear - would you be interested in testing it to destruction and posting what you find?
I also have some 2 year old mammut slings with light fuzzing, and some 5mm spectra cordalettes and atleast as old spectra cam slings (5mm cord) - how about those?
They are all at a level of wear I would suspect most people would consider 'ok' and would consider climbing on them, but it seems that could be a fatal decision in light of recent events.
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ewto
Mountain climber
My mommy's tummy
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Oct 25, 2006 - 09:59pm PT
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"When he belayed, was he using the belay loop, or did he pass the 'biner through the
main webbing and the leg-loop webbing like many (if not most) Old-Shoolers™ do? "
Not to stray too far from the topic, but I was just musing that when I posted something over at rockclimbing.com once about how it was counter-intuitive for me to use my belay loop, all the kids over there jumped my ass like I was Tom Cruise in a gay pride parade...
definitely an age-gap there... although I've committed myself to giving my belay loop a serious try after my fall in August from a cross loaded biner NOT through my belay loop.
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Mimi
climber
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Oct 25, 2006 - 10:04pm PT
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I used to climb with a Frog swami and detachable leg loops which I didn't always use. When I started climbing again and bought a Petzl, I thought that single loop was way spooky but I trusted the sewing. I think I'll start backing that loop up from now on despite its age. I'm sure age makes all the diff with nylon products.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Oct 25, 2006 - 10:09pm PT
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Lazide, check your email
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Oct 25, 2006 - 11:13pm PT
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Peter, save those old harnesses. I'm looking into testing belay loops and, barring other options, will provide an address for mailing them.
GhoulweJ,
2 days ago, I'd have thought testing these to be ridiculous. Perhaps in 2 more days I'll return to that view. For now, though, it would be nice to have some answers, however hard they may be to obtain. I'd bet that random variables would explain few induced failures. The reason to do such testing is to know something, rather than just guess. If very heavy use over 5 years leads to an average-3SD decrease in strength of X%, wouldn't you want to know X? Put another way, if someone collected data as I suggested above, would you avoid reading it?
If you've never used heavy rigging, you might think that machines for testing sewn webbing strength end at a measly weight, but they don't. Slings for use with cranes often have more than one life at stake.
tarek
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bomber pro
Trad climber
australia
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Oct 26, 2006 - 12:48am PT
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My thoughts on this are as follows, I have seen with my own eyes that harnesses can and do fail. seldom at the belay loop, but more frequently at the leg loop where it attaches through the belay loop. because of the wear and tear of the ropes and or slings girthed or tied, that are used for attaching to aiders/gear. when aiding the constant rubing of any material through the two loops that consist of the leg loop and waist band cause friction burns,usually where the belay loop attaches the two components . the one that wears the leg loop the quickest is the type of tie in that runs twice around the two points before bieng rethreaded, this when tightened in a fall, saws as it sinches tight causing massive damage over time,a carabiner instead/as well as the belay loop can cause the carabiner to fail due to cross loading at a "much" lower rating than the equipments standard or listed rating .my preferance is a steel big D malion that is strong in any direction and can't be cross loaded,and smooth enough to avoid friction at that point. I use this as my attachment point for solo aiding with a modified gri gri.the D's are also used on all my familys harnesses for added protection, my two young sons can be conected to the rapell gear and the D's tightened by me ,I can then head down knowing that they are on and can't cross load anything,or undo anything when I'm down below,fireman breaking. I can safely say that I replace my equipment on a regular basis, due to the fact that nylon/perlon is unsafe after a prolonged period ,add on frequent whippers, UV, wear and tear, then it is normal to see failures if the gear is not retired after its use by date. someone said it very well in a previous thread that "we all have to look after ourselves and our equipment" If you climb with others and you check their knots and belts then maybe take a closer look at the state of the harness and slings/rope ,and if you think its dodgy- then say something please!
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Standing Strong
Mountain climber
a dream we dreamed one afternoon long ago
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Oct 26, 2006 - 01:21am PT
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this thread makes me want to get a new harness. one with padded leg loops, too, tho maybe it's a plus that it hurts to fall? good reinforcement that falling is bad.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2006 - 08:59am PT
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Yeah I always tie in through the harness not just the belay loop, but I'm also beginning to think perhaps a backup swami or something.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Oct 26, 2006 - 10:12am PT
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What I find so sad is that they discussed the poor quality of the gear during the climb and did nothing to change the situation. Did they really discuss it?
I was under the impression that all harness specified not to tie in through the belay loop.
Since I first started climbing I have always backed up the belay loop as I saw it as a single point failure.
JDF
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Oct 26, 2006 - 10:30am PT
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Jaun,
We are basing the harness discusion on hearsay.
As for backing up the belay loop, I would say that is where everybody on this thread is headed. I used to replace my harness every year because I liked the new gear. I might start doing that annualy again.
I can say that the first harness I ever had with a belay loop, I used it for just that, to belay. I rapped off a biner threaded through the tie in points. It was not that difficult to orient the carabiner so it was not side loaded... Once again, responsibility on the climber to orient the biner.
Everybody! no matter what we do, the object to focus on may change, but the responsibility will fall back on us the climber!
As for a swami back up, perhaps we need the industrial harness used on buildings, then get rid of lightweight helmets mandating only heavy hats, and we should not expose our toes to potential permenant damage and wear steel toed boots. No better yet, We should resort to virtual climbing. We can stand in a freezer for the exposure to the elements and use nintendo software. That way none of us have to accountable for our actions (we still have to leave the freezer before we die) No wait, a timer for the freezer (doh we still have to set the timer).
---just some sarcasim and levity
Lets just all be careful. Laws and regs are not the solution and that is what this Universty study will create. It helps them get noticed. Lets work with a vendor if you really want this done. The vendors do not want us dead or injured.
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Mtnfreak
Mountain climber
Bellingham, WA / Bishop, CA
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Oct 26, 2006 - 10:35am PT
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Just wanted to correct an assumption that the first original post made, quoting the LA times. I cut and pasted this from Manley's post on the TS memoriam thread before we decided to end analysis discussion on that thread:
"from an LA Times article:
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-climb25oct25,1,3081670.story?coll=la-headlines-pe-california
'Park officials still are investigating the cause. However, a family spokesman, Steve Bechtel, said authorities had told him that their preliminary finding was that Skinner's climbing harness broke.'
I'm sure all of us are anxious to hear the cause of this tragedy, especially when it is one of our heroes... if any one has any confirmed information on the cause, please let us know.
RIP Todd, and all the love and support in the world to your family forever.
Manley
EDIT: I see now in the SFGate.com article, a more complete quote:
"We don't know whether it was a climbing harness failure or a problem with his equipment or an error," said Steve Bechtel,"
So, as I suspected, the previous article I mentioned intenionally pulled Steve's comment regarding the harness out of context for its sensational-media value. Sad, but no surprise from main stream media."
So it may not necessarily be the harness. I thought the accident occurred while Todd was descending. This means multiple raps past multiple anchors. Could it be a simple mistake at an anchor change-over?
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pedge
Trad climber
SW
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Oct 26, 2006 - 10:36am PT
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I have a harness that I used to do a lot of sweating in while in the South East that has some visible corrosion on the surface of the buckle as a result. However, I have more concern with the possible effects of urine on the nylon from those long routes with difficult, last second emergency pisses where things get a little messy. Is there any real data on the effects of urine on nylon?
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Southern Man
climber
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Oct 26, 2006 - 11:06am PT
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An AMGA instructor once told me that cat pee was found to do more damage to nylon (ropes, slings, harnesses, etc.) than gasoline. FWIW
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Oct 26, 2006 - 11:28am PT
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Suddenly, we're all eyeing our belay loops as if they were made of cellophane. Personally, I've never heard of a belay loop breaking before, and there have been a lot of harnesses used in the world in the last twenty years or so. We don't know exactly what happened in this tragic and very sad accident, but there is at least a suggestion that the equipment in question was very worn.
I'm not sure that backing up things as generally bombproof as the belay loop is really the appropriate lesson here, especially because the back-up is likely to increase one's tolerance for holding on to worn gear for one more season or one more climb. I think the real message ought to be that softgear can't be trusted indefinitely and ought to be retired well before it looks like it needs to be retired.
Mammut gives retirement guidelines for harnesses (and ropes). I've heard people ridicule these as a ploy to sell more gear or an attempt to avoid litigation by proposing absurd standards, but perhaps some of us might now take these recommendations a bit more seriously.
Never used: 10 years max
Rarely used (2 X per year): 7 years max
Occasionally used: (1 X per month): 5 years max
Regularly used (several X per month): 3 years max
Frequently used (each week): 1 year max
Constantly used (almost daily): less than 1 year max
According to these standards, your basic weekend warrior who goes to the gym once or twice a week should be thinking about a new harness every year, and three years looks like an outer limit for anyone with at least a moderate level of involvement.
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Oct 26, 2006 - 11:32am PT
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Wow! There sure is a lot of jumping to conclusions here. For my part I think I will continue to use my equipment in the way it was designed to be used and avoid things like cross loading biners that have shown to be bad. So much of the time in climbing we are relying on a single point of failure and if you are reasonable it seems that the risks are pretty damn minimal. We have one failure of an admittedly dodgy piece of gear and everyone is talking about adding redundancy, well how about just keep your gear in good shape and treat it like your life depends on it and the likelyhood of you ever having a problem is almost none. If you realized how much better and safer gear is now compared to 20 or 30 years ago, which didn't kill us, you wouldn't be panicing now.
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