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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 21, 2015 - 10:49am PT
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@fivethirty:
I think calling someone a misogynist would indeed be an ad hominem attack. You are also correct in pointing out that there's a difference between saying "you are a misogynist" and "the statement you made was misogynistic." The latter (which is what I said) does not call character into question; it specifically addresses a stated point.
Generally ad hominem arguments are fallacious, but I suppose there are cases in which they are somewhat logically reasonable. For example, "Josh Duggar's opinion on the sanctity of marriage carries little weight because he was unfaithful in his own marriage."
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/character-attack/
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 21, 2015 - 10:57am PT
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And The Wide Boyz had their cellar...
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 21, 2015 - 11:31am PT
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Let's say we define three user groups:
(1) casual gym goer, (2) average outdoor climber, and (3) total hardman/hardwoman.
Group 1 probably would not climb at all if it were not for gyms; the rise of gyms has allowed them to have an athletic hobby; they have basically no measurable effect on bold climbing.
Group 3 would probably be doing badass stuff with or without gyms, but having a training facility cultivates that further and allows them to push the boundaries even more. Perhaps gyms even allow people that might've ended up in group 2 to launch into group 3.
Group 2 is perhaps where it gets more interesting.
How have modern gyms and gym-to-crag classes altered this user group? (In a good way: more inclusive, greater style variety, etc? In a bad way: crowds, lack of understanding of the solemnity of real rock, etc?)
How about information-availability? There are many wonderful advantages, of course. On the other hand, do readily available SuperTopo pitch breakdowns negatively impact the independence and decision-making of the climbers in group 2?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 21, 2015 - 01:39pm PT
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I'd like to ad a bit to this Warbler/Cat thread ... Lol. Just kidding.
The OP article is not a surprise. Gyms have been a good thing, gyms have been a bad thing. My friend Cort here in San Diego opened Solid Rock Gym. My group of climbing friends we all started on rock, me in the early 70s on Woodson.
It was because of gym climbing and climbing on our "Rock Lab" in a backyard of our climbing friend's house we all got really strong and pushed our limits on real rock. The Knuth brothers excelled especially. In all that regard, gyms are great. You can get strong and good fast, but it better be heavily supplemented with real rock and equipment know how.
For those who only climb in gyms I feel sorry for. They're missing the spirit of the sport. It has always been a sport of nature and wilderness enjoyment, outdoor adventure, discovery, risk, and finding your personal limits. Climbing was always badass more so than any other sport. If you know climbing history you know this to be true. Depends on the generation in question and in context.
You know I hike a very well known mountain here San Diego several times a week and I boulder up and down the mountain for a really good all around workout. Seems I'm the only one doing so. It's not Woodson. The boulders aren't as big, but there are some great gems for sure.
Well one early morning I'm doing so and bouldering right off the trail, and a group of younger hot looking women come hiking by. The tallest prettiest one says, "Wow, I never thought about climbing here before, I've only climbed in a gym." I smiled at her and told her, "I would never admit to that if I were you." She said, "Sad huh?" "Yea. Gyms are great and get you really strong, but your're meant to use those skills outside. Look around. There are a lot of really fun good boulders here and it's free." She smiled.
It takes both, the real world and the gym together to see your best gains and abilities. But I mostly like and mostly stick to G-d's free gym. It's the best. Doesn't even feel like you're working out. Just having fun. ;))
Good article. I get it.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Aug 21, 2015 - 02:08pm PT
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I nominate Cat for President. Or Tami. With Dingus as VP.
Oops, Tami is Canadian.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 21, 2015 - 02:15pm PT
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You guys have fun in your sterile gym ......
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 21, 2015 - 02:40pm PT
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WB,
Have you EVER specifically trained in Camp 4 as a "Stonemaster" doing campus board, ladder, slack line etc. for big wall training or perhaps a very hard high-ball boulder problem that has you stymied?
If so, welcome to sterile gym climbing ;)
I'm pretty sure we've all done it unless of course you're from the 1920s,1930s, or 40s and into death defying climbs in the Alps or alpine terrain. Who knows maybe they trained also and it wasn't just off the couch?
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 21, 2015 - 02:42pm PT
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Training in Camp 4 is NOT sterile.
The sun, wind, clouds, smoke, birds and everything alive is all around ......
Warbler got it right off the bat.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 21, 2015 - 02:47pm PT
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True, but "training" is gym climbing none-the-less. ;)
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 21, 2015 - 02:49pm PT
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That will be your job ......
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 21, 2015 - 02:52pm PT
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Kevin
This modern internet yappin stuff is stooopid.
Why the fuk are we even here ..... :-)
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 21, 2015 - 03:02pm PT
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Nature is very sterile ... Bird poop, mouse poop, rat poop, pack rat poop, lizard poop. It all makes the rock really clean and safe to climb on. (Sarcasm)
Make sure you wash your hands before bringing them close to your mouth or nostrils.
We all roll the dice regarding this, that's for sure.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 21, 2015 - 03:10pm PT
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Gym versus real rock....MRSA versus plague....
at least Yersinia pestis responds to antibiotics :P
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 21, 2015 - 03:12pm PT
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Sometimes "maturing" is a pseudonym for "dumbing down".
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Aug 21, 2015 - 04:22pm PT
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Fecal veneer is no joke.
veneerial disease?
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Matt's
climber
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Aug 21, 2015 - 05:06pm PT
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the battle of the sexes is over, warbler, you lost...
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Blue Mountains Orangutan
Sport climber
Sydney, Australia
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Aug 21, 2015 - 06:40pm PT
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It must have been amazing to be climbing in the 70s, everyone was soloing 5.12 a week after they started climbing! Maybe Kids These Days are just slow learners. There are a couple of things they have that the old climbers never had though, "jobs" and "families". Not everyone can pack it in to become a climbing bum for a few years when they're 40.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 21, 2015 - 06:50pm PT
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Not everyone can pack it in to become a climbing bum for a few years when they're 40.
^^^^ I suggest they take up Golf and/or Cricket in your case! ^^^^
Know what I mean, Mate!
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Blue Mountains Orangutan
Sport climber
Sydney, Australia
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Aug 21, 2015 - 06:59pm PT
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^^^^ I suggest they take up Golf and/or Cricket in your case! ^^^^
I'm too old for cricket! If it wasn't for gyms there's no way I'd be climbing though, and I wouldn't be climbing nearly as well either. You have to put the time into training and climbing to get better, gyms just make it easier to put that time in. It has made climbing a lot more accessable to people which you'd think would be a good thing!
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 21, 2015 - 07:03pm PT
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^^^ How about Golf... ^^^^
Edit: Get yourself a Fly Rod (Single or Double Handed), Reel, some line, off to the neighborhood park and start casting.
You'd be amazed at the incredible Zen Zone you can achieve... seriously!
Gym climbing reminds me of a Bingo Hall on a Friday night.
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