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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Jul 15, 2014 - 09:02pm PT
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Karab, you hammer dates are off...
I was selling using and selling this stuff during many of those years.
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grey thunder
Trad climber
Hanover, NH
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Jul 16, 2014 - 06:00am PT
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The question of big wall vs. edging shoe development should include others.
The mid seventies was a time leading to transition for climbers and gear with respect to style of climbing and usage. Before Diamond there were had been many edging shoes created as examples from Fabiano, from Pierre Allain, PA's introduced in the 50's and from Royal Robbins, RR's introduced in the 70's by then big wall climbing was established advancement in footwear design to support that style of climbing existed but change was coming.
In the seventies there were in principal two types of shoes, smooth soles, flexible with grip for friction and another for edging, stiffer by midsole material with a lug sole as Diamond or older kletterschuhe shoes as Kronhoffer (sp)then came the RR and others. Always it was about the route and a estimate of usage.
The Canyon and Diamond were on the front end of some truly great development that began in the eighties. Do you remember the Opera by Asolo or Eldorado, they came after the Canyon and Diamond during this period other brands exploded on the market. Today I see even more specialized footwear.
I'm very happy to see such interest in the history of climbing products I compliment all contributors with images, gear or knowledge. This is worthwhile and very useful. Thank you one and all.
BF
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grey thunder
Trad climber
Hanover, NH
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Jul 16, 2014 - 12:06pm PT
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Thanks Steve, I saw Komito last fall. He's the same guy as always. Good smile great conversation and certainly an important individual.
BF
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2014 - 02:19pm PT
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I updated the history list, Yeah! This is what it looks like so far:
CHOUINARD HISTORY LIST #2
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7-16-2014
Still looking for Chouinard info 1961 thru 1968.
 LOST ARROWS
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1957/58 Lost Arrow first created
.(1960 Dolt catalog shows hand forged LA)
1963/64 LA Die Forged (no "USA"), eye has flat sides, no eye curve at hammer end
(How many sizes in 63/64 set?, Since Chouinard was in the Army, who created these?)
1965 LA Die Forged (no "USA") 8 set, round tip
1966 or 67? LA Die Forged ("USA") 8 set, round tip
..(don't have 66 catalog), (LA page same in 67 and 68 catalog).
1972 LA Closed Die Forged ("USA") 8 set, square tip
1975 LA Camp, (ITALY) pitons numbered 1 - 8, #/interalp/Camp
1978 LA Camp, (ITALY) pitons numbered 1- 8, #/Camp/Interalp
(Camp sells same LA's in Europe)
1987 LA Camp, (ITALY) pitons numbered 1 - 8, #/camp, thick black coating
1978 Super Long Dong, (ITALY), stamped "Camp/Interalp"
1987 Super Long Dong, (ITALY), stamped "Camp", thick black coating
KNIFE BLADES and BUGABOOS
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1959 first Knife Blade, square around carabiner hole, shows in 1960 Dolt catalog
1960 first Bugaboo, "C" but no "USA", 6 sizes, more refined square shape around carabiner hole
1964? Bugaboo with eyes on right side, no mfg stamp, die cut shape, proto? other mfg? (steve)
1964 late, new die cut shape on Kbs and Bugaboos, "C" but no "USA",
1965 six sizes available, 2 KB and 4 Bugaboos
1967 or 68? "USA" added to Kbs and Bugaboos
1968 4 sizes available, 2 Kbs and 2 Bugaboos
1971 second hole added to Kbs and Bugaboos. 8 sizes available, 2 Kbs and 6 Bugaboos
1975 I have seen Camp Italy Chouinard Kbs, but I am not sure if these were produced for the Chouinard company. I know the LAs were farmed out to be manufactured in Italy in 1975, but I am not sure if the Kbs and Bugaboos were also. History shows Chouinard making all Kbs and Bugaboos in Ventura 1980 and on. So what did the Kbs and Bugaboos have stamped on them between years 1975 and 1979? 1980 and on Chouinard may have created Camp Kbs and Bs for Europe, and Chouinard Kbs and Bs for the USA?
ANGLES
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1957/58 Ringless alloy steel angle
(Does anybody know what this looks like? (no "USA")
1960 1" angle, 1 1/2" angle (no "USA) pointed tips, longer overall
1961 3/4" angle (no "USA") pointed tip, longer overall
1965 1/2" angle, 5/8" angle (no "USA), straight-back "C" as stamp
1967? 1/2" angle, 5/8" angle (USA)
1967? new shorter 1", 1 1/4", 1 1/2" designed, square tips, "USA"
1967 1 1/4" angle ("USA"), no rivet
1971 1 1/4" angle ("USA"), stainless steel rivet added.
BONGS
1960 Alloy sheet metal Bong, (how many sizes?), no "USA", have a 3" from Bridwell
1961 Aluminum Bongs, 2, 2 1/2, 3, 4", solid sides, no "USA" steel rivet
1965 Aluminum Bong 2" with lightening holes, thinner alum stock, "C" but no "USA", (one size available)
1965 Steel 2" Bong with lightening holes, "C" stamp but no "USA" (one size available)
1966/67? Aluminum Bong 2" with lightening holes, thinner alum stock, "C" and "USA", (one size available)
1966/67? Steel 2" Bong with lightening holes, "C" and "USA" stamp (one size available)
1968 Aluminum Bongs 2 1/2, 3, 4", with lightening holes, thinner alum stock, "C" and "USA" stamp,
( 2 1/2" Bong center hole measures 1 7/16")
1970? Aluminum Bongs 4 sizes with lightening holes, thicker alum stock,"C" and "USA stamp,
(2 1/2" Bong center hole measures 1 5/16")
1970 Steel Bongs 2 1/2, 3, 4", available with lightening holes, "USA" stamp, discontinued in 1972.
RURP
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1960 RURP first created, one hole (Dolt 1960 catalog)
1961 or 62? RURP gets second hole and more refined look, wide back
1962? RURP stamped "C" or no stamp, wide back
1964 or 65? RURP stamped "RURP", wide back
1967 RURP stamped "C" and blade shorter, short back
1971 RURP stamped "C" and blade longer, blade is rounded, short back
1984 RURP now sold wired, short back
MISC
1975 Crack N' Ups, #1 - 6, (In 1973 only ten #1 Crack N' Ups were produced and it was decided not to create them since they were too thin to hold bodyweight).
#2 - 6 started selling in 1975.
1966 Cliff Hanger first created, straight thin design and pointed like a # "7" shape
1969 Cliff Hanger, thin curled design, 1 3/8" hook curl
1972 Cliff Hanger, thin curled design, 1 1/4" hook curl, thinner and more rounded hook head
1975 Cliff Hanger, new 3-point hook design, 2 3/4" tall
1980 Cliff Hanger word becomes Cliffhanger? (one word)
1982 Cliffhanger, 3 point hook design, shorter 2 1/2" tall with longer hook curl.
1985 Nut pick, wire design with small color webbing attached.
1987 HT nut tool, "heat treated" larger holes design,
1988 HT nut tool, smaller holes design with notches under pick,
1989 HT nut tool, smaller holes design
1966 - 1970s? Chouinard also created Cadmium plated pitons for marine use. My 1 1/2" plated angle is longer pointed style so it is mid 1960s era, I also have a plated knife blade which has two holes. Two holes came about in 1971 so these pitons were getting plated for many years. I am surprised that Chouinard did not mention or offer these in the equipment catalogs.
HISTORY NOTES
Steve has a prototype 1 1/2 aluminum angle.
I have a 1961 Chouinard Bong 2 1/4" prototype from Don Lauria.
Frost / Dolt bongs shown earlier for 2nd ascent of Nose, two carabiner holes.
Tom Cochrane - Frost 1960 steel bongs with lightening holes (templates)
ADDITIONS
Looking for proof of:
Knife Blade and Bugaboo with "C" but no "USA" stamp on Mid 1960s die cut version.
Bong 2" with lightening holes aluminum with "C" but no "USA" stamp.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jul 16, 2014 - 03:13pm PT
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Bruce: Thanks for posting up your Asolo/Shoenard memories.
Marty: Great & wonderful work on the Chouinard timeline!
I do have a solid Aluminum 2 1/2" Bong that is stamped C & U.S.A. I pose it next to my solid 3" Bong that is just stamped C
They appear to be the same thickness of metal and the rivets are identical, but reversed.
A small change, but one that adds to your list.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 18, 2014 - 05:19pm PT
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Marty - I think that the RURP stamped "RURP" may not be a Chouinard offering. I don't recall Yvon using a block letter stamp that way on any other hardware. I have seen other RURPS with that stamped on them and no Diamond "C"
Both Gerry and Holubar stepped into the alloy steel piton market while Chouinard was in the Army and left it just a quickly once Gerry had a well-publicized death related to one of their baby angles shearing off under load partly because it was poorly placed in a horizontal crack with the eye up. The failure was traced to a tempering problem. Gerry Cunningham was a brilliant sewn goods designer but a bit out of his depth working in hardware.
I would certainly drop the Army years off of you timeline if you can sort the dates out.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2014 - 05:36pm PT
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Steve, That is interesting since the RURP I have is from Art Christiansen and he snapped the tip off of it while placing it. Said it just broke. The 1966 Holubar catalog lays out the Chouinard products showing the stamped "RURP" RURP, it makes it seem like it is a Chouinard not Gerry product. Good researching for sure!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2014 - 08:51pm PT
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Chouinard Stoppers
The 1971 Chouinard catalog flyer mentions that Stoppers will be available later in the year.
In 1972 Chouinard introduces Stoppers which were first shown in the 1972 catalog, a catalog which centers on "clean climbing."
1972 set: #1-4 wired, #4-7 slung. solid alum, no wire keeper, no "Stopper" stamp on front or back, "USA" is left of "C"
Winter 1972 "Stopper" stamp was added. So one side is "Stopper" and opposite side is USA "C" #. Same as 1972 stoppers but has the word "Stopper" added.
1972 Winter set: #1-4 wired, #4-7 slung. solid alum, no wire keeper, "Stopper" stamp on back, "USA" is left of "C"
In 1973 the new larger size #8 Stopper is introduced.
1973 one size, #8, slung. "Stopper" stamp on back, "USA" is left of "C", oval lightening hole through nut length.
In spring 1974 a plastic wire keeper was introduced to hold together the wires on the wired nuts. I just noticed that in the 1972 catalog the March-June 1974 version price list shows Stoppers wired now #1-6. Does anybody have a #5 or 6 that is wired and has the "USA" left of "C" plastic keeper or not?
1974 set: Spring #1-4 wired, "Stopper" on back, small colored plastic wire keeper on just the wires. Mid 1974 Stoppers #5, 6 wired.
In 1975 Chouinard added a thick somewhat clear plastic wire keeper to all of the Stopper wires which covered the wire swedge as well. 1/2 sizes were added to the original #1-8 set and the word "Stopper" moves to the front of the nut on the number face. The small sizes #1-4 may still have "Stopper" on back. "USA" is moved to right of the "C". So now "USA" is between the "C" and the number. I am surprised that Chouinard did not create a #7 with a lightening hole, or does somebody have one of these to show?
1975 set: #1-8 1/2 wired, #4-8 1/2 slung. Sizes #6 1/2, 7 1/2, 8, 8 1/2 have oval lightening holes, Stopper on front, "C" "USA" #, thick clear plastic wire keeper.
In 1976 Chouinard changed the cord hole sizes on five of the slung nuts. #4 1/2 increased 5mm to 6mm. The sizes #7, 7 1/2, 8, 8 1/2 decreased 9mm to 8mm. This may be because of the cord size and strength that was being sold at the stores at the time.
1976 set: Differences are in only five sizes #4 1/2, 7, 7 1/2, 8, 8 1/2.
In 1978 the Stopper set was totally changed. A new set #0-13 was introduced. In the 1978 catalog the photo shown is still the 1975 set, where the chart on the page to the right shows the correct listing of Stoppers. The 1979 catalog shows a scrambled photo of Stoppers which the center Stopper is the 1975 size 8 1/2. 8 1/2 stopped in 1977. There is no listing for the #0 in the 1979 catalog. The 1980 catalog has a photo of the correct 1978 Stoppers. The size "0" I have never seen a piece or photo. Does anybody have a size Zero Stopper? Looks like it was giving Chouinard trouble and it was dropped in 1979. The 1980 Spring newsletter mentions Chouinard still trying to make the size "0" work, but it still was not included in the 1980 Winter catalog.
1978 set: #0-13 wired, #7-13 slung. Sizes 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 have oval lightening holes, clear plastic wire keeper.
In 1981 the Stopper set was once again completely changed. This time the Stoppers are curved on all sides. I call these "Double Curved." Sizes #1-12 are available and a "tested" label is added under the clear plastic wire keeper. Label is white with a small word "Tested" on it in light blue, dark blue or red printing.
1981 Set: #1-12 wired, #7-12 slung, Sizes #6-12 have double curved shape, small word "Tested" on label under clear plastic wire keeper.
In 1986 Chouinard introduced a new set of Stoppers ranging from #1-13. Stoppers have straight sides for one placement, and curved sides for another.
1986 set: #1-13 wired, #8-13 slung. "tested" label under the clear plastic wire keeper. Label is white with a small word "Tested" on it in light blue, dark blue or red printing.
In 1988 the tested label changed on the wired Stoppers. The label is now colored. With the slung Stoppers there is no difference between the 1986, 1988 or spring 1991 slung set. #1 and 2 black tested label same as 1991 #1 and 2 label.
1988 set: #1-13 wired, #8-13 slung. colored tested label under clear plastic wire keeper.
In 1991 Chouinard is now Black Diamond. Large "Tested" label is added.
1991 set: Spring, #1-13 wired, #10-13 slung. different colored label with large word "Tested" under clear plastic wire keeper. Stoppers #9-13 have lightening hole. "C" is still on the Stopper face.
In Winter 1991, "B" and "D" was added to "C" "USA" stamp on all Stoppers. The "Stopper" word stamp on the stoppers is reduced in size. Same large tested label as Spring 1991 set. I don't have any of the 1991 slung version Stoppers to show.
1991 Winter set: #1- 13 wired, #10-13 slung. "B"and "D" added to "C" logo. Smaller "Stopper" word on Stoppers, different colored label with large word "Tested" under clear plastic wire keeper. Stoppers #9-13 have lightening hole.
The slung stoppers were discontinued and not offered in 1996.
1996 set #1-13 wired, "B""D"and"C" logo, colored "Three Sigma" tested label under clear plastic wire keeper. Stoppers #9-13 have lightening hole.
1998 set #1-13 wired. "B""D"and"C" logo, colored newer "Three Sigma" tested label under crystal clear plastic wire keeper. Stoppers #9-13 have lightening hole.
In 2003 Black Diamond color anodizes the Stoppers. Black Diamonds new logo is stamped onto the Stoppers.
2003 set #1-13 wired. Stoppers are various colored, new Black Diamond Logo, Stoppers #9-13 have lightening hole, olive colored "Three Sigma" tested label under crystal clear plastic wire keeper.
2006 set #1-13 wired. Stoppers are various colored with slight change to colors, Black Diamond new Logo, Stoppers #9-13 have lightening hole, all white with black ink "Three Sigma" tested label under crystal clear plastic wire keeper.
A few notes. On many of the Stopper sets the #1-5 remained the same flat sided design. Some of the smaller Stoppers have "Stopper" on them and some don't. Do the best you can to fill in the lower #s of these sets. The age is usually determined by the wire keeper and test tags and shape of the Stoppers. For some reason on some of the earlier Stoppers the USA remained on the left side of the "C" stamp. On some stoppers the aluminum looks different, softer or more shiny. I found a few 1978 Stoppers that had test labels on them. I figure that during the changeover from one set of Stoppers to the newer design, the materials get mixed every once and a while. I am not sure if there are reasons why the test labels small print was red, blue or light blue in 1981.
.
Does anybody have a 1978 #0 Stopper?
Does anybody have a 1975 #7 Stopper with oval lightening hole?
Does anybody have 1972-1975 style Stopper #5 and 6 wired, "USA" left of "C", plastic keeper or not?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 19, 2014 - 11:11am PT
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The classic Tom Frost shot of Yvon with adornments circa 1972.
A few shots of the full Arsenal of sixteen Stoppers.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2014 - 06:58pm PT
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I created this chart 14 years ago as a checklist of all the different Stoppers that were created. Not all Stoppers are listed on this chart, just the ones that are different than each other. This is a July 2014 update to the past MK Stopper chart.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Jul 22, 2014 - 09:12am PT
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What a powerful thread! Awesome!!
Not sure if this helps but the Catalog you posted earlier with the possible date of 1965 or 1966 - might be 1965. I just acquired a copy and that is how it was sold to me. The newest referenced date in it is 1965.
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rockjockrob
Boulder climber
Tempe, Arizona
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Jul 23, 2014 - 02:28pm PT
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Marty, It is time for the Tube Chocks! I only have one in my collection, but I know you are holding on to those photos, Share em Bro!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 23, 2014 - 04:54pm PT
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Crank up the Mike Oldfield...LOL
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 27, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
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Roots, Nice catalog! Looking at the history of Patagonia it mentions that Tom Frost joined Chouinard in 1965. So the catalog shown mentions the same about Tom and 1965 so my guess is that it for sure is a 1965 Chouinard catalog. Nice item! Thanks for sharing it!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 27, 2014 - 03:50pm PT
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Chouinard Nut Tools
History shows climbers using the Chouinard Long Dong piton as a nut tool. Then Chouinard created the Super Long Dong nut tool as a nut tool. The Super Long Dong is similar to the Dolt Nutcracker, but has a notch near the blade tip. The HT nut tool gets its name from being "Heat Treated." Black Diamond still shows the 2003 version nut tool in their 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 catalogs. The 2010 version Nut Tool with signature BD symbol has been available in all stores since 2010, but is not shown in BD catalogs.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 27, 2014 - 04:08pm PT
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Just got notification that as of August 1st Sport Chalet will be bought out by EMS/Bob's Stores.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 31, 2014 - 08:15pm PT
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I came across this sweet Ellis Brigham catalog which I think is from 1975. The catalog clearly shows Chouinard Climaxe available in Ash or Bamboo.
So now the out there Marty theory: Chouinard says all Climaxes only created with hickory handles. Maybe the factory in Italy presented to Chouinard a beautiful Climaxe sample which Chouinard accepted to be made. (Thinking that Chouinard did not create the Climaxe, the factory in Italy created it hoping for Chouinard to sell it). Chouinard accepts the creation ordering hundreds, which unfortunately the majority of the hundreds received in USA were flawed. Chouinard drops the price to sell off the flawed Climaxes, but for some reason over the next 4 years the price was not raised back up above wholesale. Maybe Chouinard was disappointed with the way the Climaxe turned out and was not interested in resolving the flawed problem, and stopped selling Climaxes when the first batch finally ran out. On the Europe side the Climaxe was reworked and became thicker and was available with different wood handles. Chouinard probably got a percentage from the Italy factory of every Climaxe they created, but Chouinard may not have been in control of the European distribution, hence he was not aware of the Climaxes having Bamboo handles. Once again just a Marty theory.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 1, 2014 - 08:20pm PT
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Brass / Steel Nuts
1981 Brass Nuts, #1, 2, 3, 4, short wire keeper
1982 Brass Nuts, #5, short wire keeper
1982 Steel Nuts, #1, 2, short wire keeper
1984 Steel Nuts, #3, 4, 5, short wire keeper
1986 Steel Nuts, #6, short wire keeper
1990 Steel Nuts, set #1- 6, long wire keeper
1991 BD Steel Nuts, set #1- 6, long wire keeper
1995 BD Copper/Steel Nuts, #1- 6, all sides flat, dark nut
1996 BD Copper/Steel Nuts, #1- 6, angled tip, dark nut
1999 BD Swedges, #1- 6, angled tip, dark nut, tested label
The "T" on each nut shows that it was individually tested.
1981 Chouinard introduces Brass Nuts, #1, 2, 3, 4, short plastic wire keeper
1982 Brass #5 is created, short plastic wire keeper
1982 Steel Nuts, #1, 2 were created, short plastic wire keeper
1984 Steel Nuts, #3, 4, 5 were created, short plastic wire keeper
1986 Steel Nut, #6 was created, short plastic wire keeper
1990 Steel Nuts, set #1- 6, long plastic wire keeper, Chouinard / Black Diamond
1991 Steel Nuts, set #1-6, BD added to C stamp, long plastic wire keeper, Black Diamond
In 1992 the name Steel Nuts changed to Copper/Steel Nuts.
1995 Copper/Steel Nuts, set #1-6, dark color nuts, all sides flat, long plastic wire keeper, Black Diamond
1996 Copper/Steel Nuts, set #1-6, dark color nuts with angled tip, long plastic wire keeper, nut is Swedged to wires, Black Diamond
1998 the name Copper/Steel Nuts was changed to Swedges. 1998 Swedges set still has plastic tubing on the carabiner loops. Swedges name comes from the process of attaching the wires to the nut which started in 1996. The larger size nuts are swedged to the wires, not soldered. The swedge creates the angled nut tip.
1999 Swedges, set #1- 6, dark colored nuts with angled tip, long plastic wire keeper with tested label, only #1 has plastic tubing on carabiner loop.
2000 the name Swedges changes to Micro Stoppers.
1982 Steel Nut #2 prototype? Not sure if these were created or this was a prototype tester for the initial creation of the Steel Nuts. First of all #2 in the usual set is color yellow where this is Red. The end is plastic dipped. I would say maybe a climber personally dipped this item? But if you inspect the tubing on the wire at the carabiner end, (not the wire keeper), the tubing under the plastic dip is much shorter than what all of the other Brass and Steel nuts have. I believe since the tubing was so short that it kept sliding out of place so the added dipped plastic on the wires held the tubing in place. This tubing serves as protection for the carabiner so the wires do not saw through the carabiner under a swinging load. Chouinard decided to go with longer tubing on the nuts instead of dealing with the plastic dipping mess.
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