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John M
climber
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Jul 21, 2012 - 05:37pm PT
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You have a super bright scientist in training who decided to use guns to kill people in a theater. Seems to me the key issue is mental health--not guns. You think this guy was not smart enough to figure out another way? Look at his apartment. The scary thing to me is that this person was very capable of bioterrorism. It's a waste of time talking about guns.
Not true that it is a waste of time. The guy may have been smart enough but was he organized enough mentally to make it happen. Mental health has all kinds of variations..
An example.. For those who are extremely depressed and suicidal, the most dangerous time for a suicide isn't usually at the worst part of the depression because by then they don't even have the energy to get out of bed. The most dangerous time is often as they are coming out the depression. Then they have enough energy to go through with it. So a person get suicidal, they start thinking about how to kill themselves, then they might buy a guy, then if the depression worsens they might not even have the wherewithal to pull the trigger until they are starting to come out of the depression. It takes more energy they you might realize to actually go through with killing yourself and it take mental organization to build a biological weapon and then use it.
I only post that to point out that mental illness has stages and it has different dangers at different stages. A person like this could be smart enough to build a biological weapon, but not motivated to do it. Then as the mental illness progresses he might get the motivation to do something violent but then he might not have the mental organization to build that biological weapon. So then he looks for something simpler. Such as a gun.
If the gun were harder to get he might still go through with plan, but he might have less weapons or he might progress through his mental illness until he doesn't even have the energy to do anything but kill himself.
So guns and the ease with which a person can get them do play a role. Although it is not the only thing which plays a part in this. It was mentioned in the other thread that our mental health system was taken apart so help is more difficult to obtain.
Then there are the organized psychotics.. which is a whole other variation but which I believe is more rare. those are the crazies that kill lots of people over a bunch of years. One at a time. Their mind is organized enough to keep them from getting caught immediately.
So the type of mental illness plays a role. How far along the mental illness is plays a role. And how prone the person is to violence plays a role.
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beef supreme
climber
the west
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Jul 21, 2012 - 05:50pm PT
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Something that crossed my mind, not really making a point of anything, but it's in regard to the 'mental stability' of the perp. Remember in the first batman (ok, not the first, but like the first one of late- the one with heath ledger as joker or whatever) so, anyway, I remember a part in the movie where Michael Cain/Cane (spelling? whatever).. So anyway, he says something like "some people just want to see the world burn" in the movie.
Makes me wonder if people who act out these atrocities really are mentally ill. Look at the guy in Norway who did worse- there's no way that guy is 'insane', he's perfectly sane!. I wonder if it's the same with this guy.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 21, 2012 - 06:21pm PT
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"some people just want to see the world burn"
Bingo!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 21, 2012 - 06:22pm PT
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Three things you can't have real discussion about:
gun control
abortion
religion
Given that, this will be my last comment on the subject.
If you ever experience a REAL firefight (not talking paintball here) your opinion concerning assault weapons in the hands of the general public might undrego a metamorphosis.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jul 21, 2012 - 06:29pm PT
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NRA is mostly responsible for the body count. Most radical and dangerous organization in the U.S.
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Jorroh
climber
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Jul 21, 2012 - 06:33pm PT
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The problem is clearly that there weren't enough people in the theatre packing guns. We should probably have a law mandating that everyone carry AK 47's or equivalent at all times.
Purely for the sake of safety of course....because more guns = safer right?
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jul 21, 2012 - 06:39pm PT
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Is someone going to put up the actual statistics documenting how many instances of lethal attacks have been prevented by gun-carrying citizens who are not cops?
Zimmerman killing Martin and the like will not be counted in the tally.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Jul 21, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
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"assault weapons" is simply an over used phrase intended to demonize any gun that looks dangerous.
What is it that makes people think they are any more capable of killing people than other types of guns?
Do you think they shoot faster?
How fast do you need to shoot when no one is shooting back?
Hold more ammo?
How many bullets does it take to kill 12 people?
The gun type makes no difference if someone is intent on killing people.
Even if you banned all auto loading guns...
Here is what a 12 year old kid can do with a lever action rifle, 2 single action revolvers and a breach loading double barreled shotgun in under 11 seconds...all delivered on target.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 21, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
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with the number of guns carried legally,
how many have been used in self-defense in a gun fight?
I haven't heard of any, which certainly seems to be evidence that they are not used in that manner.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jul 21, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
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They are only used in the imaginations of NRA members
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Jul 21, 2012 - 08:22pm PT
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They happen all the time Ed, but rarely reported on the news.
This one happened a few days ago...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 21, 2012 - 08:23pm PT
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They happen all the time Ed, but rarely reported on the news.
and not reported to the police? I doubt that... where are you stats?
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jul 21, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
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Ed, the NRA bullies will never see the insanity of their argument, more guns = more safety. Especially when they have their own cable channel.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 21, 2012 - 08:39pm PT
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http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html
seems to be a bit of a discrepancy the NCVS survey in 1993 estimated 108,000 defensive gun uses (DGUs) where as other stats estimated 1,500,000 DGUs.
Maybe crimpergril can weigh in here...
in this report: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fidc9397.pdf
in 1993
104,000 firearm injuries from all causes
64,100 nonfatal assaults, 18,253 homicides, 18,200 unintentional, 15,100 undertermined...
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John M
climber
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Jul 21, 2012 - 08:39pm PT
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Ed, I'm not particularly pro gun, but that study seems to be full of holes.
Edit: your first post...
It doesn't state how many times women used a gun to keep from being attacked or murdered.
It doesn't state how many of those women who were murdered didn't' own a gun, and thus were not able to protect themselves.
thats just what I found after a quick scan. I could be wrong. your result may vary..
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 21, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
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put your stats up John M...
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10881&page=53
"U.S. Rates
Across the population as a whole, neither homicide nor suicide is one of the 10 leading causes of death in the United States. However, for 15- to 24-year-olds, homicide is the second leading cause of death, and suicide is the third. The rankings are reversed for 25- to 34-year-olds. Considering these data by race, homicide is the leading cause of death for blacks ages 15 to 24 and 25 to 34. And it is the sixth leading cause of death for blacks at all ages."
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John M
climber
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Jul 21, 2012 - 08:43pm PT
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I don't have any stats.. I was just looking at your first link and found some holes in it. I prefer that studies be as fair as possible.
I would rather have the facts be clear, then I can draw my own conclusions.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 21, 2012 - 08:49pm PT
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"Firearms and Self-Harm
Historically, the number of successful suicides in the United States has far exceeded the number of homicides. In 1999, the number of suicides was nearly double the number of murders. In contrast, nonfatal injuries resulting from suicide attempts are much less common than injuries caused by violent assaults, regardless of weapons used. In this section, we describe the patterns and trends for death and nonlethal injuries resulting from self-inflicted, firearm-related harm."
"Firearms and Accidents
Firearm-related accidental deaths represent a small fraction of all firearm-related deaths, but unintentional injuries represent a sizable proportion of all nonfatal injuries resulting from firearms—behind only the number caused by violent assaults."
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