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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Apr 24, 2006 - 07:26pm PT
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Lambikins?
Lame.
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Professor Fate
Big Wall climber
Vulgaria
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Apr 25, 2006 - 01:44am PT
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Lambone: Please allow me to try to correct your mis-understanding (for which I assume a partial responsibilty for trying to explain something relatively complex to a person that is admittedly under the effects of consumed alcohol). I never consider the rope my PRIMARY source of protection and prefer to use it as a form of insurance should my primary methods fail. On many occasions I have found it very possible and good strategy to use the rope as a tertiary or even quartenary system of protection.
This means I never choose to hang on a rope as part of a strategy I would use on a route. In the times and places I have been fortunate enought to climb, most of the people I have engaged in this particular aspect of the pursuit refer to this as "free climbing."
As always, my posts do not infer any judgement or counsel that others should consider aimed at them or an attempt to influence others in their choosen practices and picadilloes but instead merely reflect my own experineces, and little else.
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doc bs
Social climber
Northwest
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Apr 25, 2006 - 02:47pm PT
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Gene,
Thanks for sharing, this is a great thread. And wow - you're a tough SOB!
Kate,
I vote belayer failure. I've avoided grigrid unless the gym makes me use it, never use it outdoors - hows that al dude?
In gym, kids' coach has kids belay down-climbers on TR with grigri. It did not worry me until one day I climbed with women's class (mostly beginners never climb outdoors). I looked back uncomfortable to see my belayer toggling the cam to help me get down, decking was a real possibility if I fell (probably ok for 80# kid on 10.5mm rope, but for an adult - its not). Feeding rope smoothly with hands on either side of device with out touching the cam WILL protect me.
Lovegasoline,
Transverse processes = bones poking out from vertebrae (=building blocks) to side of midline - can't feel them individually with fingers because they are covered with ligaments and connective tissue. They contribute stability to back to preserve the spinal cord space in a fall but there is tons of redundancy so Gene does not have unstable back. However he will hurt for a few months and will be wise to climb carefully on TR and avoid slam-dancing to let those bone heal for about six weeks.
Doc
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Apr 25, 2006 - 02:59pm PT
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There seem to be a lot of fishy things here.
First, I would probably never haul a grigri up castleton, particularly the Kor Route. There are simpler multi function (rapping off) belay devices. Second, I dont remember a ledge either but it has been 25 years since I did it. Third, I would NOT start up the crux pitch unless I KNEW I was going to climb the sucker (of course back in the day the biggest piece we had was a #4 friend.) It is a longish, widish offwidth stout 5.9. Not exactly something you want to go work by falling.
Reagrdless, and assuiming its not a troll, glad you are OK, Gene.
And professor Fate, I think you are a troll too, but you are absolutely correct. This is a good route where you do not want to weight the rope until it is time to rapp off the tower. I guess this is not a technique that is taught these days?
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Professor Fate
Big Wall climber
Vulgaria
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Apr 25, 2006 - 04:30pm PT
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And professor Fate, I think you are a troll too, but you are absolutely correct. This is a good route where you do not want to weight the rope until it is time to rapp off the tower. I guess this is not a technique that is taught these days?
I certainly do not maintain that I am really named Professor Fate, but other than that I try to represent my actual views and experiences in such fashion that I believe makes me a sincere user and not a troll. As always, the reader can never be prevented from forming thier own version of reality, nor should they. I find this site most useful and informative and have done several routes that I have seen recommended here from one user or another that has been kind enough to share some of their experiences and observations. If this behavior is deemed trolling than the appelation does seem all that pejorative and I see no reason why I should argue that point.
I am more interested in discovering what may or may not have actually happened and if it is possible to learn something from it while also offering my own take on events I have experienced that may or may not be relevant.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 25, 2006 - 08:14pm PT
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"It was my choice to use a rope that is smaller than Petzl’s stated 10 mm minimum rope diameter. However I have tested this combo repeatedly...."
Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!!! You sure as hell tested it thoroughly THIS TIME, didn't you? What were you THINKING?? Read the frickin' INSTRUCTIONS on the device!
Some have suggested the Grigri might have been threaded backwards. I don't think we've yet heard from Gene on this, have we?
If you are going to be stupid, it pays to be stupid and lucky. Glad to hear you're more or less OK, dude.
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David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
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Apr 25, 2006 - 09:39pm PT
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I have used a gri gri on two walls, but have not had to catch any falls, so in some ways, the device has not been tested on the wall in my hands. I have caught tons of gym falls and it has worked great, but that is less of a test.
However, I think that if you use a gri gri, you need to get in the habit EVERY TIME of checking the direction of threading PRIOR to saying "on belay" by pulling on the leader's side. It should lock up immediately. If you get used to this so that you do it every time, automatically, you cannot get into the situation of having to yell, "Hey! You are the hand!" That has been my practice for about 5 years, have not threaded it backwards.
Glad you are OK, great thread.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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Apr 26, 2006 - 10:41am PT
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It's a Petzl troll just gathering info on their product.rg
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the Fet
Trad climber
Loomis, CA
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Apr 26, 2006 - 11:22am PT
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The auto-lock on the GriGri is a backup! People not understanding that is the problem. You still belay like an ATC unless you want to test fate.
Hardmann wisely wrote "The Gri Gri works like a seat-belt. Anything that slows the rope will delay (or prevent) locking.
It's the inertia of the rope that makes it lock. Unlike an ATC-type device, where it doesn't really matter what your left hand is doing––it's the tight bend that makes the rope stop. "
I took a solo self-belayed fall on a gri-gri and it zipped right through to my backup knot. I fell maybe 10 feet with no braking at all. I almost grabbed the rope (and would have burned my hands) but I had the time to think "don't grab the rope, wait for the backup knot". It was a 10.2-10.5 rope.
So I could easily see a leader falling, with a lot of friction on the rope from going thru multiple pieces of pro causing the leader to fall slowly (sometimes you don't even feel the catch in these cases), the belayer holding the rope loosely, and the rope zipping thru the gri-gri.
I wouldn't be suprised that if you fed the rope into the grigri from above with no friction, and started pulling the rope slowly, then gently accelerating the pull until it's fast(so the lock didn't engage) you could pull the whole rope thru the grigri.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Apr 26, 2006 - 12:05pm PT
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"I was trying a cinch out and liked it at 1st, but i had an incident (or near incident)...when he launched unexpectedly i had both hands on the rope, one on either side of the device (my left hand was on to pay out rope, my right as the break hand). so when he fell, the friction on my left hand prevented the rope from reaching enough acceleration to activate the cinch."
Thanks for posting this. From my experience using the cinch, I had thought that the cinch was less prone to this than the grigri. (And I've been willing to put up with the sensitive lowering for the more secure catch.) But it looks like I'll give this some thought.
I do have more questions (if you don't mind):
My right (brake hand), both holds the rope and "rocks" the cinch open to feed.
Did you have neither hand on the device at all? (Without rocking the device open, I've never been able to feed the lead rope out this way, even slowly. The grigri can, at least sometimes, have rope feed without actually touching the device) If the right hand was fully on the rope without touching the device, than I'm truly alarmed.
Or was the right had rocking the device open when the leader fell? If this was the case, how is this any different from the scenerio of feeding rope out with the grigri when the leader falls. If the device is being held in "feed" mode, rope can go through it (although I had always found that the cinch ripped out of my hand and locked up on its own).
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Apr 26, 2006 - 01:48pm PT
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AW- yeah, i had neither hand on the device, i was basically belaying as if i was using an atc. i didn't really like using my brake hand to also hold the device in a position where it would feed rope, and i found that the angle of the device was what allowed rope to feed, so if i remember correctly, i found a way to finesse it into the proper angle w/out really needing to touch it (unless i was caught of-guard and had to pay out rope in a rush). i'd have to play around w/ it again to be more specific because it has been in the garage for a few months now.
in any case, it's only a few bucks cheaper and a few ounces lighter than a grigri, and since it has it's own learning curve, i feel better w/ a grigri if only because my various partners are far more likely to be familiar w/ the grigri than w/ a cinch.
all that said, to drift back to the original thread, i never use either unless i am sport climbing.
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Polar Sun
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2006 - 08:06pm PT
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As I mentioned on my original post, no one will ever know for certain why I fell so far. The most likely explaination is that the GriGri was threaded backwards. The belay was dismantled before anyone thought to check this at the site. Less plausible, but possible, is that the belayer managed to hold down the actuating cam despite the force of my fall. In my own experience catching many big falls on a GriGri this is impossible to do. The belayer's hands were not burned, but there were observable marks where dirt on both hands had been worn off by the moving rope. Obviously this person was not holding onto the rope for dear life.
As to why use a GriGri at all for belaying a leader? In an alpine or loose rock situation it is quite plausible for a leader to fall pulling out a loose block or rocks that end up hitting the belayer. A dead or unconscious belayer means the leader falls the length of the rope.
My physical recovery has been nearly complete and I'm climbing again without difficulty or pain. Have fun out there, and wear a f___g helmet.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 26, 2006 - 08:35pm PT
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Taking this all at face value;
There ARE problems inherent with lead belaying with a grigri, largely negated by traditional use of the brake hand. There are those I would trust to be belay me with those units (Werner, P-rob, Fred, etc) myself, I don't make the cut, on a regular paced free pitch. I have been known to squeeze the cam to let rope through, potential death! Only for nailing or bolting would I trust myself in this mode for a lead belay.
F*#k the helmet, you would have been better served by a competent belay.
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Finn
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
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Apr 27, 2006 - 01:59am PT
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From the Petzle website:
http://en.petzl.com/petzl/SportProduits?Produit=203
Technical specifications
For ropes of diameters from 10 to 11 mm.
225 g.
It's certainly no excuse for not paying attention to your leader, keeping your hand on the brake etc... but...
Glad to hear you're ok, bad falls suck.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 27, 2006 - 02:57am PT
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I'm just curious what the diameter of a 9.4mm rope is once 100 feet of it is payed out and someone falls on it inducing a large amount of stretch, force and weight.
I'd say that you were stretching your luck using a rope so much smaller than the manufacturer calls for, and during the fall you streched it a bit more. Sorry for the pun.
Either way, glad this had a good ending and you're able to be here to analyze and learn from the mishap.
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LuckyPink
Trad climber
Petaluma
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Apr 27, 2006 - 05:47pm PT
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I was practicing passing the knot on rappel ( for Lost Arrow ), using the grigri, swung into the rock to gain a little purchase to relieve some tension on the rope, and POP, off came the grigri, TOTALLY threaded correctly to begin with, functionally perfect for about an hour, no warning, biner on it, right size rope. Thankfully I'm not a stupid sport climber and was backed up, since I was alone anyway. I would have dropped 80ft into shrubby rock and never been seen again. Now I never use a grigri. Think about it.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Apr 27, 2006 - 06:54pm PT
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LuckyPink,
That's impossible unless the entire device fell into many pieces. Are you talking about the Gri unclipping from the biner? Or, the rope coming out of the Gri?
It doesn't sound right.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 27, 2006 - 08:37pm PT
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Hmmmm ...
Was it one of those slightly unweighted falls where it doesn't grip, but the rope just sort of slides through?
One time a year or two ago, I met a dude bailing from an attempted solo of NA Wall.
"I fell, the Grigri didn't hold, and I slid all the way to the end of the rope, which was fortunately tied to me!"
And I'm like, "Uh dude, ever heard of tying a frickin' backup knot?!"
Sheesh.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Apr 27, 2006 - 09:20pm PT
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Referring to holding down the cam..."In my own experience catching many big falls on a GriGri this is impossible to do."
I know of two recent deckings due to cams that were held down (and not released) at the moment the leader fell.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 27, 2006 - 09:52pm PT
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Ammon-- What's up, bro?
LuckyPink--Gotta go with Ammon on this one. Just physically impossible for a Grigri to "pop off", unless it's in pieces.
I think the general theme here seems to hold: Know your gear, learn to use it properly and within it's specified limits and then do so.
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