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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Mar 10, 2012 - 12:43am PT
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Just saying that it is hard to swallow an ethics rant from a tooling organization that has questionable ethics all too often.
Chippers, plant trampling Pad People, and the like should be strung up for sure.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Mar 10, 2012 - 12:50am PT
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dude, bernadette, don't taze me bro!
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strangeday
Trad climber
Brea ca.
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Mar 10, 2012 - 12:50am PT
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Was out at cap rock the other day and noticed some serious thrash trash up a couple of copper head practice lines. That rock is defaced for the next hundred thousand years. I felt the shame for our community.
Is that on the big boulder behind the parsons traverse? I saw a bunch of fixed copperheads and nuts there, and was kind of shocked. I figured that they were quite old. There's a lot of day tourists walking around there, and it seems silly to be doing aid practice in such an obvious spot, on really sketchy looking gear.
Edit: both of these are on that boulder, and less than 8' off the ground.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 10, 2012 - 01:01am PT
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the pad people are here to stay. get used to them.
nice job of coming down on bernie here--so much for a chance for dialogue. this means you, robért.
go 'head and publish us a sportclimber's guide to josh, randy. it'll be a lot easier to be accurate with only a dozen climbs to deal with. funny how, with all the josh guidebooks we've got, no one can come up with the one for which there is the greatest demand.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Mar 10, 2012 - 01:03am PT
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Buy the Gaines guide. THere has to be a few hundred sport routes in there.
Of course they don't tend to be the fashionable, steep, big hold, soft grade kind of sport climb, it is Joshua Tree after all.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 10, 2012 - 01:25am PT
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jeeziz, you people talk through your hats.
gaines's guide--best climbs, right? we're talking about the same book?--lists 21 sport climbs and 17 mixed trad-and-sport. of that list, there are 6 climbs easier than 5.9. that whole book only has about 100 routes in it.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Mar 10, 2012 - 01:27am PT
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They're all sport climbs, until you fall.
Edit: The soon to be published Flatus Press sport guide lists 144 routes considered "sport". That ought to hold you you clip and go guys for a while.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 10, 2012 - 10:35am PT
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I just re-read the OP, and it still disturbs me. It's entirely too vague in many regards.
Is she pointing the Official Finger at just a small minority or everyone?
Granted, the environment has changed a lot since my first visit in 1982. The ground level has "sunk' at starts of many climbs--in many cases by a foot or more. i.e. "Butterfly Crack," on Trashcan Rock. In Indian Cove the "Gotcha Bush" is GONE. These changes are all due to climber impact, but (probably?) weren't done deliberately. Are we just suppoed to come and look at the rocks? If that's the case, her job just became superflous, and she can godo something eles.
Personally I decry any deliberate modification (chipping, brushing, gardening, etc.)to what's there for us to climb on. These persons whom Bernadette has targeted need to realise that not every square inch of rock is climbable "by fair means." To me..."by fair means" means an awful lot, and is part of the reason that I still climb, and still love climbing. To do otherwise simply brings the climbing down to a different level.
So, and in conclusion, to those chippers, brushers, gardeners...GFYS.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 10, 2012 - 10:51am PT
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Isn't Joshua Tree heavily visited by the whole Los Angeles basin on weekends.
Everything imaginable crawls out of that place on weekends to the "fun spots".
Good luck trying to control that horde. :-)
A monumental task for sure.
I bet the people that do most of the so called damage pointed out in this thread don't even visit this forum nor care.
So a giant LED billboard should be constructed out on I-10 way before the 82 turnoff with the pertaining info to the problem.
Modern education for the modern idiots ..... :-)
Either that or cut Russ loose on em.
They'll never again do anything wrong again .... :-)
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 10, 2012 - 10:57am PT
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i'm back in northridge these days, coz, or else i'd take your advice.
sounds like there's some kind of climbing subculture going on--hack work on the rock, pooping atop headstone--these things related? pretty obvious rebellious message being put out. the NPS, from my point of view, seems to have done a pretty good job of engaging the climbing community up until now. perhaps this post was just a way of putting a message out. perhaps i rather fondly hoped it might be a chance for dialogue on related issues.
So a giant LED billboard should be constructed out on I-10 way before the 82 ...
i'll bet morongo casino would be happy to rent LED time.
stay in yosemite, werner, where all is pure and pristine and you never have to deal with hordes crawling out on weekends.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 10, 2012 - 10:58am PT
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Tweet? WTF is that sh!t !!!!
That's way homo.
Kick em in ass works every time.
I had to do it to Tucker one day.
Just ask Russ, he'll verify .....
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 10, 2012 - 11:03am PT
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So...as a result we all pay the price of stupidity...again.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 10, 2012 - 11:06am PT
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if history repeats itself, there'll be a thread on here in about 25 years ...
"i'm sorry i pooped on headstone. it was a dumbass thing to do, but i was young and i did what i did. i'm not proud of it, but i can't say i wouldn't do it differently if i had to do it over again."
this will surely be hashed from every angle into 2,000-3,000 posts. maybe 8,000, topping the number of alleged JT routes.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 10, 2012 - 11:35am PT
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Take it easy coz.
NPS climbing rangers are not stupid.
They know how to filter thru climber bullsh!t.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 10, 2012 - 11:36am PT
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As a major developer of JT and a former member of the AF board, I fought hard to help the climbers of JT.
Did it ever occur to you that land managers, and the public, aren't very happy about the use of the word "develop" in relation to natural, undeveloped lands?
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Mar 10, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
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Poor ethics?
Lack of vision by the first ascentionists?
Perhaps a "I don't give a damn what others think" attitude?
quote came from levy!
i've put up only a couple of FA's in malibu and had to use glue due to the nature of the rock.
Jtree has a different standard.
please keep it real people.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Mar 10, 2012 - 01:52pm PT
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Bernadette makes a reasonable request here regarding responsible use of the park.
Chipping is lame and any as#@&%e that does it should be cast out of any climbing "community" on line or off.
Same goes for drilling to practice aid placements.
Reckless "gardening" is more of a misdermeanor but, should be frowned upon and not practiced.
New routes are going to continue to be put up in JTNP and the FA's should be responsible and pay attention to sensitive areas and consider all consequence of thier actions.
That said, Park officials will continue thier path towards the "Us vs Them" mentallity if we are reckless in our behaviour(s).
A HUGE, current issue in Joshua Tree National Park, has nothing to do with climbers. The amount of Tourists using the park is having a distinct and lasting effect on every available resource.
Educating the person that uses the park once or twice in thier lifetime is just as important as changing/improving the behavior of frequent users, IMO.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 10, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
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What time is the coffee? Not clear from the FOJT site.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Mar 10, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
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Is this site the climbing community? Is this post truly indicative of the climbing community as a whole or just the same 10+ posters? Most of us posting here are older and have been climbing there for years. There are so many more people climbing in JT since I started in '91 and I'm a relative new comer next to those posting here. So I agree with many of the posts but how to correlate and how to have true representation from the climbing community as a whole?
Personally, I think there are more then enough climbs of all stripes and we don't need more. Todd Gordon has certainly done his part to put up user friendly bolted climbs and although not my cup of tea (most of the pictures posted on other threads look more like bolted boulder problems)I think they certainly have their place along side the more traditional climbing that I prefer (if you haven't climbed Figures then you haven't climbed JT as far as I'm concerned) giving the park more than enough variety.
And the pebble pullers have there place as well representing possibly more of the younger climbers then any other form of climbing and should have fair representation along with their impacts being studied and weighed alongside all other forms of climbing.
Just a lot more climbers of all sorts that I don't think get represented here but need to be.
So NPS has it's place and are trying to at least gather data, good or bad that some form of concensus can be taken from because as GDavis says, we can't police ourselves. But this forum can possibly be a place to form consensus among itself at least and a starting point for others because hopefully we can work with the park and use what they get for a positive outcome. NPS has to deal with all use, not just climbers.
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