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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 30, 2013 - 03:48am PT
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Didn't daily mail also write an article about Wool Stick fighting on Everest?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jun 30, 2013 - 10:10am PT
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Where does rick get his facts ask the desperate warmists.
Hah, the desperate warmists did not ask that. Rick's desperate warmists, like Chief's men in white coats, dance only in his fevered imagination.
He might imagine that he's talking about me, although I'm neither desperate nor warmist -- and I didn't ask about his sources. I asked who is feeding those sources and talking points to him. I know about Zwally and many other papers. Who pointed Rick to Zwally and said "Look here, you'll like this one!" Who gives him those talking points he's so eager to believe, then rush back here and repeat?
Although some of his puffery, like "there is no doubt about that," is so incoherent or clueless I'm guessing he makes it up by himself -- not even his talking-point providers said that?
Rick Summers:
The Antarctic ice mass is increasing, there is no doubt about that
Shepard and 46 others (including Zwally) in Science, November 2012:
We combined an ensemble of satellite altimetry, interferometry, and gravimetry data sets using common geographical regions, time intervals, and models of surface mass balance and glacial isostatic adjustment to estimate the mass balance of Earth’s polar ice sheets. We find that there is good agreement between different satellite methods—especially in Greenland and West Antarctica—and that combining satellite data sets leads to greater certainty. Between 1992 and 2011, the ice sheets of Greenland, East Antarctica, West Antarctica, and the Antarctic Peninsula changed in mass by –142 ± 49, +14 ± 43, –65 ± 26, and –20 ± 14 gigatonnes year−1, respectively. Since 1992, the polar ice sheets have contributed, on average, 0.59 ± 0.20 millimeter year−1 to the rate of global sea-level rise.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/338/6111/1183.short
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2013 - 11:46am PT
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Rick's "scientific" article from The Alaska Dispatch starts with, "Defiant as ever, the state that gave rise to Sarah Palin is bucking the mainstream yet again: ..."
The Dispatch??
Yes Rick, we can all put our money behind that article.
Come on, stop cherry-picking the articles you believe and look at something with merit.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jun 30, 2013 - 12:05pm PT
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"....i watched a program..."
Compassion....tolerance.....compassion.....tolerance....
I'm trying so hard right now.
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 30, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
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Why don't you try to find som informations about the quantitive effect of those two phenomena if you are interested? It is not like you are going to care about any answer anyway.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jun 30, 2013 - 12:23pm PT
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The temperature dropped to 58 degrees last night at my house. Obvious sign that the planet is not warming.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jun 30, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
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The point is, Kelly, that with the dizzying array of scientific papers out there, many contradicting the interpretations of others, it is difficult if not impossible to separate fact from fiction in this CAGW baloney. So you might as well get your information from the raggiest of rags if it is merit you judge by. Did you guys know that the all time record U.S. high and low temperature spells happened in 1936? Chiloe, Antarctica is an interesting example of contradicting interpretations. Some say the ice mass is decreasing but the majority say it is increasing, it's just that you discount the consensus on this. Bias?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jun 30, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
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Chiloe, Antarctica is an interesting example of contradicting interpretations. Some say the ice mass is decreasing but the majority say it is increasing, it's just that you discount the consensus on this.
OK, I'll keep asking. "The majority say it is increasing," the "consensus," who feeds you these claims? If you had any awareness of current research yourself, you would never have declared "there is no doubt about that", nonsense you just had to walk back into this new revised "majority say" claim (which is nonsense too). So who's feeding you these talking points you're so eager to believe, then jump along to the next when someone points out they are wrong?
Bias?
No, the explanation is simpler. I cited a recent Science article because as a member of the AAAS I have a subscription to Science, it arrives in my mail every week. (Same reason I often quote EOS, I belong to AGU so EOS arrives each week too.) Science is the leading interdisciplinary journal, and with 46 authors including the one you cited earlier, I figured that article probably is state of the art.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jun 30, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
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Not surprised the CC crowd doesnt believe those that live up there. Its inconvenient for this "theories"..
I guess by "CC crowd" Ron means scientists, but of course they are very much interested in what "those that live up there" have to say. In fact that's a significant area of research, such as this book by Igor Krupnik.
ARCUS has published a collection of ten papers describing contemporary efforts to document indigenous knowledge of environmental change in the Arctic. Compiled and edited by Igor Krupnik and Dyanna Jolly, "The Earth is Faster Now: Indigenous Observations of Arctic Environmental Change" is available from ARCUS for $25 U.S.This publication was supported by the NSF Arctic Social Sciences Program with additional support for increased distribution provided by the Arctic Studies Center, Smithsonian Institution.
The Earth is Faster Now reviews major individual studies on indigenous knowledge and climate change undertaken during the past few years, primarily in North America. The text is accompanied by local observations, quotations from interviews, personal observations, illustrations, and photographs. Contributors include well- known academic researchers and Native people from Canada, Finland, and the United States. The publication is designed to be useful to both researchers and communities as a tool for networking and communication.
http://www.arcus.org/publications/eifn
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jun 30, 2013 - 01:43pm PT
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Yeah Ron, they baffle each other with their state of the art b.s., keeping their biased faces glued to their subscriptions like that rag Science while totally ignoring the very real lines of contradictory evidence. Quite sad it is, the politicalization and tunnel vision the "consensus science" is in this field. The lost boys-a generation of enviromental scientists our universities turned out instead of the hard sciences. Everything anthropogenic-what a crock.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jun 30, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
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Having mentioned EOS just upthread reminded me that I hadn't read the most recent issue (June 25). And what do you know, they have an Antarctic piece by Colin Schultz, summarizing new research in Geophysical Research Letters (emphasis added):
Extreme value analysis unveils dramatic Antarctic warming
Since the late 1940s the average temperature of the coldest days on the Antarctic Peninsula has soared by 14°C. Through a novel analysis of daily temperature records collected at the peninsula’s Vernadsky Research Base, Frankze identified that the strong warming trend has affected the coldest 5% of days on the Antarctic Peninsula over the course of the observational period, from 1947 to 2011.
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Through a multivariate analysis the author then assessed how the trend in cold extreme temperatures aligned with trends in solar activity, ozone, atmospheric carbon dioxide, and aerosols. He found that the temperature trend aligned best with the rising trend in atmospheric carbon dioxide. The research suggests that climate change can have a large and disproportionate effect on the occurrence of temperature extremes. (Geophysical Research Letters, doi:10.1002/ grl.50301,2013)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/2013EO260011/abstract
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jun 30, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
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Quite sad it is, the politicalization and tunnel vision the "consensus science" is in this field.
Whoa, are you walking back your declaration that there is a "consensus" that Antarctica is gaining mass, already? That was fast!
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 30, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
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So the problem is now that the climate scientist contradics themselves? That not all papers came to the exact same conclusions?
I thought the problem where that the climate scientist didn't think for them selves and just followed a concensus so they could get more founding.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jun 30, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
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The lost boys-a generation of enviromental scientists our universities turned out instead of the hard sciences. Everything anthropogenic-what a crock.
So, here is the full list of authors for that Science paper you just declared was a crock. Which of these people do you reckon has less science training than you do, Rick?
Andrew Shepherd1,*,
Erik R. Ivins2,*,
Geruo A3,
Valentina R. Barletta4,
Mike J. Bentley5,
Srinivas Bettadpur6,
Kate H. Briggs1,
David H. Bromwich7,
René Forsberg4,
Natalia Galin8,
Martin Horwath9,
Stan Jacobs10,
Ian Joughin11,
Matt A. King12,27,
Jan T. M. Lenaerts13,
Jilu Li14,
Stefan R. M. Ligtenberg13,
Adrian Luckman15,
Scott B. Luthcke16,
Malcolm McMillan1,
Rakia Meister8,
Glenn Milne17,
Jeremie Mouginot18,
Alan Muir8,
Julien P. Nicolas7,
John Paden14,
Antony J. Payne19,
Hamish Pritchard20,
Eric Rignot18,2,
Helmut Rott21,
Louise Sandberg Sørensen4,
Ted A. Scambos22,
Bernd Scheuchl18,
Ernst J. O. Schrama23,
Ben Smith11,
Aud V. Sundal1,
Jan H. van Angelen13,
Willem J. van de Berg13,
Michiel R. van den Broeke13,
David G. Vaughan20,
Isabella Velicogna18,2,
John Wahr3,
Pippa L. Whitehouse5,
Duncan J. Wingham8,
Donghui Yi24,
Duncan Young25,
H. Jay Zwally26
Author Affiliations
1School of Earth and Environment, University of Leeds, Leeds LS2 9JT, UK.
2Jet Propulsion Laboratory, M/S 300-233, 4800 Oak Grove Drive, Pasadena, CA 91109, USA.
3Department of Physics, University of Colorado, Boulder, CO 80309–0390, USA.
4Geodynamics Department, Technical University of Denmark, DTU SPACE, National Space Institute, Elektrovej, Building 327, DK-2800 Kgs. Lyngby, Denmark.
5Department of Geography, Durham University, South Road, Durham DH1 3LE, UK.
6Center for Space Research, University of Texas at Austin, 3925 West Braker Lane, Suite 200, Austin, TX 78759–5321, USA.
7Polar Meteorology Group, Byrd Polar Research Center, and Atmospheric Sciences Program, Department of Geography, The Ohio State University, 1090 Carmack Road, Columbus, OH 43210, USA.
8Centre for Polar Observation and Modelling, Department of Earth Sciences, University College London, London WC1E 6BT, UK.
9Institut für Astronomische und Physikalische Geodäsie, Technische Universität München, Arcisstraße 21, 80333 München, Germany.
10Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory (LDEO), 205 Oceanography, 61 Route 9W - Post Office Box 1000, Palisades, NY 10964, USA.
11Polar Science Center, Applied Physics Laboratory, University of Washington, 1013 NE 40th Street, Seattle, WA 98105–6698, USA.
12School of Civil Engineering and Geosciences, Cassie Building, Newcastle University, Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU, UK.
13Utrecht University, Institute for Marine and Atmospheric Research, Princetonplein 5, Utrecht, Netherlands.
14Center for Remote Sensing of Ice Sheets, University of Kansas, Nichols Hall, 2335 Irving Hill Road, Lawrence, KS 66045, USA.
15Department of Geography, College of Science, Swansea University, Singleton Park, Swansea SA2 8PP, UK.
16National Aeronautical and Space Administration (NASA) Goddard Space Flight Center, Planetary Geodynamics Laboratory, Greenbelt, MD 20771, USA.
17Department of Earth Sciences, University of Ottawa, Ottawa, Ontario K1N 6N5, Canada.
18Department of Earth System Science, University of California, 3226 Croul Hall, Irvine, CA 92697–3100, USA.
19School of Geographical Sciences, University of Bristol, Bristol BS8 1SS, UK.
20British Antarctic Survey, High Cross, Madingley Road, Cambridge CB3 0ET, UK.
21Institute of Meteorology and Geophysics, University of Innsbruck, Innsbruck, Austria.
22National Snow and Ice Data Center, University of Colorado, Boulder, CO 80309, USA.
23Delft University of Technology, Faculty of Aerospace Engineering, Kluyverweg 1, 2629 HS Delft, Netherlands.
24SGT Incorporated, NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, Cryospheric Sciences Laboratory, Code 615 Greenbelt, MD 20771, USA.
25Institute for Geophysics, University of Texas, Austin, TX 78759, USA.
26NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, Cryospheric Sciences Laboratory, Code 615 Greenbelt, MD 20771, USA.
27School of Geography and Environmental Studies, University of Tasmania, Hobart 7001, Australia.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jun 30, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
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We could start with just the first two. Rick, are these your "lost boys-a generation of enviromental scientists our universities turned out instead of the hard sciences"?
Prof. Andrew Shepherd
Professor of Earth Observation
University of Leeds
Andrew Shepherd uses satellites to study physical processes of Earth's climate. He is a member of the NERC National Centre for Earth Observation, coordinator of the European Space Agency VECTRA InSAR consortium, and a contributing author of the Fourth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. Andrew's main contributions to science have involved remote observations of the cryosphere, with particular emphasis on the quantitative techniques of radar interferometry and radar altimetry. He has also worked on studies of arid land degradation using satellite infrared radiometry and models of atmospheric radiative transfer, and he has led satellite validation campaigns in Europe, Africa, and Antarctica. His currently funded research includes investigations of the stability of the Larsen Ice Shelf in Antarctica, developing methods to retrieve elevation in regions of rugged terrain using the CryoSat-2 interferometric altimeter, estimates of the sea level contribution due to Antarctica and Greenland, and monitoring changes in Earth's glaciers and ice caps.
http://www.see.leeds.ac.uk/people/a.shepherd
Erik Ivins
Group Supervisor
Principal Scientist
Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Education
. BSc in Physics, Calif. Polytechnic Univ. Pomona (1972)
. MSc in Geophysics & Planetary Physics, UCLA, Los Angeles (1976)
. PhD in Earth Sciences, USC, Los Angeles (1995)
Research Interests
. Elastic and viscous flow of the solid earth's deformation field using advanced modeling techniques
. Postseismic relaxation and adjustment processes
. Use of time-variable space gravity, GPS and altimetry for monitoring cryospheric change, postglacial rebound and sea level change
http://science.jpl.nasa.gov/people/Ivins/
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Jun 30, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
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"Hi,, were from the GOVT and were here to help!"
It sure sounds like you worked for the Government Ron. How can you buy into that sh#t? We have all lived and grown up with a government that is basically Socialist yet people like you can't seem to own up to that. What's that all about? We all want to believe we are all independent tough cavemen but that's not the truth. We might be tough but it ends there. You are just buying into bullshit - the same bullshit they fed to Reagan.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Jun 30, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
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Pardon the intrusion. I haven't been reading this thread, but I am curious if there are any meteorologists posting here? In my past life, fifty years ago, I was a meteorologist for the USAF, but left the profession for a math career and haven't kept up with the science. I got my meteorology education at the University of Chicago.
However, I have lived on the high prairie of southern Colorado for over 40 years, and this year I have witnessed weather-related phenomena I haven't seen before: Visualize looking 30 miles out on the prairie, under lowering skies, and seeing what appeared to be a bank of whitish-yellow mist rising up, stretching across many miles, with tendrils spiraling up a thousand feet or more, then watching as this bank advances toward you, finally reaching you as you are driving back from a nearby state park, forcing you to pull over while engulfed in horrendous winds and dense blowing dirt: a violent dirtstorm. I have been in several of these this spring and summer.
A few weeks ago my daughter, visiting from NYC, was fascinated as we watched dust devils in the distance towering up more than a thousand feet. Her remark, with which I agreed, was "it looks like Mars."
I haven't a clue as to an explanation of these phenomena other than an unusual undulation of the jet stream, which could have several causes. One of which might be CO2 warming, but I personally doubt humans have a lot to do with this apparent climate change. But this is an appraisal from a once-upon-a-time meteorologist who has forgotten a lot.
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Jun 30, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
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yo jo, could it be similar to the phenomenon that helps create the famous front range T-storms? Warm air lifting off the plains, causing instability/winds/dust devils. Maybe with less vegetation and/or monsoonal moisture (due to funky jet stream) to keep the dust down?
I used to LOVE watching those thunderheads build when working near Colorado Springs (Hayman Fire). So much energy!
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jun 30, 2013 - 05:21pm PT
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Hi John, I hadn't heard about those dust storms but just checked, and they have certainly made the news. From the Denver Post on June 9:
LAMAR — Jillane Hixson stopped dusting her home about noon on a clear Friday and looked out the window to a storm roiling in the distance.
Small dust devils kicked up, and within moments, a punishing dust storm slammed into Hixson Farms at full force, trapping Hixson and her husband, Dave Tzilkowski, in their home for 15 hours to kick off the Memorial Day weekend.
"You hear sand and dirt pounding against the window," said Hixson, a fifth-generation farmer whose land and home are 4 miles south of Lamar. "You know that it's your crop that's hitting the windows and blowing away, and it's not just affecting you, but also everyone else."
They raced to close the blinds and curtains — to minimize the thick
Dave Tzilkowski and his wife, Jillane Hixson, look out over their farm from their backyard. Their crop of wheat was damaged by the recent dust storm. "You hear sand and dirt pounding against the window," said Hixson, a fifth-generation farmer whose property is 4 miles south of Lamar. "You know that it's your crop that's hitting the windows and blowing away, and it's not just affecting you, but also everyone else."
"You can't stand to look at it," she said. "It's like a train wreck, looking a disaster full in the face."
They paced and they prayed as 60 mph winds kept coming.
"At one point, the sand was pounding on the glass so hard, I didn't know if it was hail or dirt," she said.
By late evening, so much dirt was floating inside the house, they had to cover their faces with handkerchiefs.
"It was in your nose, on your tongue, in your eyes," she said.
Hixson showered late that night but soon was covered with another layer of grime. They went to bed at 11 p.m., putting their heads under the blankets to shield them from the noise and the dirt, but they couldn't really sleep. They moved from bedroom to bedroom trying to find some peace.
By the time they woke at 6 a.m. Saturday, the storm had passed.
They opened the front door and saw 3-foot drifts of dirt everywhere.
"We were shellshocked, almost immobilized by depression," she said. "We were overwhelmed by the huge financial loss, and by the physical and emotional stress."
....
"We had periods of blowing soils in the 1970s that required tractor work," Tzilkowski said. "But this is ridiculous. I've never seen anything like it."
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It's the inevitable result of three seasons of extreme drought in the area — D4 this year, the worst on the U.S. Drought Monitor scale, and no relief in sight, said state climatologist Nolan Doesken.
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_23420681/massive-dust-storms-hit-southeast-colorado-evoking-dirty
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Jun 30, 2013 - 05:27pm PT
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McHale,, do a 180 and youll be on target with my last 100% sarcastic post..;-)
You asking me to do a front lever Ron? Ask Mr. Gill! I'm pretty sure Ron you meant it as I took it.
Welcome to the Frayed Knot Mr. Gill. It's a bit like bouldering. I'm expecting some sand-bagging from you! Yep, those dust storms are something. People don't hear about the ones in Central Oregon either! They are cutting the damn trees as a way to pray for rain. It's all pretty effing stupid.
I don't get why you don't think people can change the climate. If we can increase atmospheric CO2 by 40% it means we are big enough to have an impact. We've packed a lot more into the oceans and it's just waiting to come flying back out with a little more warming. In general, people do not understand what an extraordinary achievement it has been for humans to do that, so many of the issues of understanding the problem flow from there.
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