Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Jun 28, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
I have a serious (perhaps stupid) question, please.

Is the CO2 humans exhale, harmful to the environment?

New World Order. The amount that humans breath out would be taken up in the normal carbon cycle. There are perhaps enough green growing plants to deal with that amount. It is the vast and colossal amounts of CO2 that we create through industry, heating, and transportation, that has nowhere to go or be absorbed in the normal way. The normal carbon cycle is already maxed out and perhaps in balance, but all the extra has to go into the atmosphere and the ocean (part of the atmosphere/biosphere). Sure, it's CO2, but it is the colossal amounts we are adding to the biosphere that are throwing things out of balance first by heating the oceans mostly and adding to its acidity levels.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jun 28, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
Ron, living organisms are carbon neutral (or carbon sinks with respect to the atmosphere). They take up more carbon than they emit during their life, which is how they grow. Once they die that carbon is either liberated by decomposition or stored. Fossil fuels are stored carbon that was built up over 10's of millions of years of high biological productivity. We are releasing that carbon directly into the atmosphere over hundreds of years.

Why is it so hard for you to comprehend the OBVIOUS imbalance? You said yourself increasing the CO2 in the atmosphere by 20% would definitely have consequences... we have increased it by 40%. Pull your head out of your ass.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jun 28, 2013 - 03:01pm PT
^ willfully ignorant idiots lumping based on limited knowledge, even less understanding, and NO critical thinking skills.

"Eco groups" didn't "shut down logging." SOME people concerned about endangered species habitat stopped the rampant logging of SOME old growth stands, which would have been replaced by unhealthy even-aged monoculture tree farms.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Jun 28, 2013 - 03:02pm PT


The very fact that eco groups shut down logging has resulted in the LOSS of many scrubbers of CO2. Eviros fighting enviros..

That doesn't make sense Ron. Trees take up CO2 and store it. I'll post a photo of some deforestation that just happened in my neighborhood in Seattle. That was a loss of CO2 scrubbers.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jun 28, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
Some FACTS and MYTHS about "clear cutting." From the east, but worth reading if you like forests...

Click it


From Alaska...

Note, the number 1 reason for even age management (clear cutting) is ECONOMIC, not ecological.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jun 28, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
Its all in how they are utilized.

And how they have adapted NATURALLY. Some forests clearly respond better to clear cutting than others. Again, the number 1 reason for clear cutting is economic, NOT ecologic.

Face it, we USE forest materials and we MUST manage them appropriately. The timber industry is only ONE aspect... driven by profit, NOT by forest health concerns.

The only reason we need be concerned about biomass accumulation in forests is our own fire suppression activities.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Jun 28, 2013 - 03:28pm PT
Here's some deforestation going on in Seattle on GREENWOOD AVE. Looks like between 1 to 2 acres of nice trees. Ron, these weren't taken out by bugs. All for new housing in the era of Climate Change. This seems so stupid. It is actually just north of the northern Seattle City limit at 145th. This is happening all over the area. Just making the point that it's not forests somewhere else that are going down, like in the Amazon or Indonesia. Enjoy the heat wave this week everyone!
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jun 28, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
Simply because of the shear volume, the rubber stamping review process,and the huge cash flows ino it,the junk papers are overwhelmingly on the pro CAGW side. Many people have brought forward paper after paper refuting many of the premises this phony science is based on. Only people that are massively ideologically biased could fail to miss it. That Co2 is capable of reflecting radiation equally from earth or space points to another balancing mechanism you guys refuse to acknowledge.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jun 28, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
When you can have the best of both worlds its a no brainer.

First off, you CAN'T have the best of both worlds. The timber industry's best world is vast monoculture tree farms because they are cheaper, easier, and maximize profits. The (uneducated) "eco group's" best world is a robust ecosystem with high biodiversity and no signs of human impacts... probably involves unicorns.

The timber industry was OUT OF CONTROL, much like the dam builders of the mid-1900's.

And caring and profit are NOT mutually exclusive.

They are if the only ones calling the shots are interested in profit.

That even in some very poor volcanic soils.

FWIW, volcanic soils generally have higher water retention and higher inorganic nutrient concentrations (Ca, K, Na, etc) than granitic soils.





That Co2 is capable of reflecting radiation equally from earth or space points to another balancing mechanism you guys refuse to acknowledge.

You are so fuking far beyond clueless.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jun 28, 2013 - 03:51pm PT
You said "volcanic soils" not ROCK... so I assumed you meant soil.

Also, FWIW, volcanic ROCK weathers faster than granitic ROCK.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Jun 28, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
Its not even a drop in the bucket when compared to the millions of acres of dead timber that died due to insects and disease and NON treatments of those compartments.

Sounds to me Ron like you are denying that a warming climate is making it much easier for the bugs. It's not just the Forest Circus. Why do we sell lumbar so cheap that we can't even manage the forests?
raymond phule

climber
Jun 28, 2013 - 03:57pm PT

Simply because of the shear volume, the rubber stamping review process,and the huge cash flows ino it,the junk papers are overwhelmingly on the pro CAGW side.
How do you know this? Or maybe more relevant why do you believe that is the case?


Many people have brought forward paper after paper refuting many of the premises this phony science is based on. Only people that are massively ideologically biased could fail to miss it.

Can you give examples? How could someone that is not in the system at all know that this is the case?

To me it seems that many skeptical papers get published but maybe not in the best journals. McIntyre has for example a couple of publications. Swensmark many publications. Lindzen and Spencer also. Even humlum have published papers.

The real question is why do you believe your sources when you have problem to understand the science and not any first hand knowledge about the per-review process?


That Co2 is capable of reflecting radiation equally from earth or space points to another balancing mechanism you guys refuse to acknowledge.

I don't know what you mean but it sounds like a strawman. Can you explain what we don't acknowledge?
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Jun 28, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
It's pretty clear Ron that you are not looking at all sides of the problem. At best your 1.1 figure is just an average as well. The skeptic side loves to average everything away.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Jun 28, 2013 - 04:11pm PT
To deny that any warming is taking place and that it contributes to the problems is................what is that? I'm not saying you don't care about the forests. It's very clear that others in your field will have a very different idea of what is going on though. What, are you the only Forester on the planet?
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jun 28, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
Ron, you are confounding the issue by using a number that is NOT relevant. That ".11 of one degree" increase is the global average and says nothing about local conditions.

http://www.uwyo.edu/haub/ruckelshaus-institute/_files/docs/publications/2010-bark-beetle-workshop-proceedings.pdf

Read page 5

The current forest composition can be attributed to the past century (or more) of natural environmental conditions and disturbances, as well as past management decisions, including fire and timber policy. Many wildfires have been suppressed throughout the twentieth century, leading to denser stands of trees in a susceptible age category in some forest types, such as ponderosa pine, and leading to less diversity of age classes
in other areas. Timber harvest practices of the late 1800s and
early 1900s also contributed to more even-aged and even-sized
stands that are now susceptible to beetles (Negron 1998; Fettig
et al. 2007; Bentz et al. 2009).

Climate conditions
Two climatic factors are likely interacting to facilitate the magnitude of the current epidemic: 1) drought-induced stress on host trees, which reduces defense mechanisms (Mattson and Haack 1987); and 2) warmer winter temperatures that increase overwinter survival of beetles and can speed up reproductive cycles in some species (Cole 1981; Bentz et al. 2009). Together, these two factors have created prime conditions that have resulted in the marked increase of bark beetle populations (Raffa et al. 2008). The bark beetles’ tolerance to cold is dynamically Figure 4. A) Beetle galleries; B) Blue-stain fungus in lodgepole pine.

The bark beetles’ tolerance to cold is dynamically dependent on the temperature regime experienced by a given species, so a simple low temperature threshold cannot fully explain the role of temperature in beetle survival (Bentz and Mullins 1999). However, when prolonged drought is coupled with increasingly shorter periods of severe cold and overall warmer winter temperatures, the likelihood of all bark beetle species’
survival greatly increases (Bentz et al. 2010).


Even though i have enough training and classes to have a masters in forestry

Classes don't get you a MS.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jun 28, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
LOL Chief, your graph shows about 1.1 C rise per century using 1996-2013 trend.

Thanks, man, that's quite a '17 year pause'.


To help you out, splitting hadCRUT3,4:

1996: .24 C
2013: .44 C

Let see if you can do the math.
raymond phule

climber
Jun 28, 2013 - 04:15pm PT

Even though i have enough training and classes to have a masters in forestry, youll not believe what i have to say. so much for all that first hand experience i guess.

The irony. People should listen to you on a subject where you could have taken a masters degree but you see no problem in ignoring scientists with a PhD when you don't like their conclusions.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jun 28, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
Ron, what you fail to do is realize the role of references in a scientific article.

Soils dry out due to loss of crown.

No way in HELL a beetle kill tree dries out the soil more than a living tree.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jun 28, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
The soil below beetle kill trees is not exposed to direct sunlight for a few years or more ("red phase").

The change in habitat you mention around McClellans (?) was most likely due to the fact that it was "logged 100%" and has NOTHING to do with beetle kill. Beetle kill trees still shed their needles, providing organic matter to the forest floor. Organic matter is the main component of soil that holds onto moisture.

Logging at 100% in that environment is IDIOTIC, as evident from the results. Driven by PROFIT no doubt, without a CARE for the land.

Were you part of that operation? What was the prescription for soil organic matter and soil cover?
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Jun 28, 2013 - 04:56pm PT
Down in Oregon they are cutting junipers to keep water in the soil. THAT sounds pretty goofy. They claim the junipers are stealing the 'peoples' water.

First link in a search comes up with this. This quote below is from the first post in the blog. It's so stupid what is going on down there;
http://www.hcn.org/issues/44.16/the-great-new-mexican-juniper-massacre

Fast forward to Central Oregon-the Bend Bulletin recently ran a piece that claimed junipers were an invasive species that out-compete native grass for water. The Bulletin claimed a mature juniper soaks up 40 gallons a day and dessicates the soil, and that it is practically a civic duty to cut as much juniper as possible to save the land from drought. Total BS, but really bad ideas in range management seem to be practically immortal.

Ron, I used Forester as a general term, did not mean any kind of distinction.
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