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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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May 14, 2008 - 05:59pm PT
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Bob, at least you have gotten him to agree that the number is fair.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 14, 2008 - 06:08pm PT
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"Your wrong...who common sense/what is out of control?"
No Bob, I'm not wrong and that's why places like the Gunks and Eldo have stringent management plans and bolt bans are in place elsewhere.
As far as common sense / out-of-control goes - this really gets to the heart of the issue - you basically embrace and advocate sport climbing to the point where one can only imagine how ergious rap bolting activity would have to be before you would even raised an eyebrow.
The point of the number of new sport lines going in in 2008 wasn't some sort of competition between sport and trad - it's simply a solid inidcator of the on-going cost [in bolted rock] of sustaining sport climbing. This seems to be the part you really don't quite get, or are unwilling to acknowledge, that the sport climbing portion of the demographic by definition demands new lines be bolted and new areas be 'developed' at a fairly consistent pace - and that that is exactly what is happening. In the case of Red Rock NV that is happening back in canyons where it is ill-advised at best.
And if by "40%" you mean that 60% of the folks in 2008 who strap on a harness to do technical rock climbing are going to be placing gear at some point I'd say again, delusional. I'd be astounded to find out more than 20-25% of the demographic placed a piece of gear this year.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 06:14pm PT
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Trad wrote: Bob, at least you have gotten him to agree that the number is fair.
Just wait...he will be back with some other number taking out of his...
So if at least 90 -per cent of trad-climbers sport climb.. they get taken out of the equation with usage/issues just because they call themselves trad climbers. Joe logic...or the World according to Joe!
The people putting up the routes are to blame but the majority of people using the areas are not to blame because they didn't put up the routes but they use the areas more and if they call themselves trad climbers they at least twice remove from any blame or usage issues..
More logic from Joe.
The people who strap on a harness in a gym or a cruise boat are to blame for all the issues in outside areas even through those same people will never climb outside or off the cruise ship.
More logic from Joe.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 14, 2008 - 06:33pm PT
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Joe wrote: No Bob, I'm not wrong and that's why places like the Gunks and Eldo have stringent management plans and bolt bans are in place elsewhere.
So why is Skytop closed to climbing??
Why have they put fixed anchors in the Gunks?
Why do they have trail and cleanup days in Eldo and various other climbing areas in the US?
Why are fixed anchors being place in Eldo??
answer my question...what percentage of trad-climbers...sport climb too??
Joe wrote: And if by "40%" you mean that 60% of the folks in 2008 who strap on a harness to do technical rock climbing are going to be placing gear at some point I'd say again, delusional. I'd be astounded to find out more than 20-25% of the demographic placed a piece of gear this year.
Joe...you are so far away from getting it!!! It is about usage and sheer number of climbers. Sport, trad, toproper, boulderer, aid climber and peak-bagger...we are all climbers and share the responsibility to maintain our areas and keep access open for all of us.
So lets close sport areas or stop all new bolt activity...what happens to the other areas with this steady increase in climbers?? Eldorado is bursting at the seams now, the Gunks are bursting at the seams...the scenario goes on ....
All through this thread you, Stannard and likes of Mimi were trying to get me blame one sub user group/or myself for what is happening in climbing...I refused and was call names and such for standing my ground on the basis that these are climbing/climbers issues. You, stannard and Mimi also tried to demean my work as a volunteer and my activism for the last 30 years in the climbing community. You also tried to make me out to be the leader of some bolt-foaming-at-mouth-cult that goes around making havoc and putting up bolt ladder every two feet on every piece of rock in America while ignoring the FACT that areas I help developed are nothing of the sort. I will continue to work on climbing issues while the likes of your group continue to blame. let's see who gets more done and let's see who will close more areas.
You are a wedge keeping good from happening because you choose to blame one sub user group for all the ills of the whole. You are the problem and not the solution. I am ashamed of your behavior on this matter.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 14, 2008 - 06:50pm PT
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HeallyJ.. here in the N eAST We have Rumny and it is a zoo on weekends but then we have a bunch of trad areas as well and they are all jammed up on the weekends and many of the classics are all jammed up mid week. It really is a climbing thing not a sport climbing thing. I believe that the gyms and climbing schools are definatly responsible for a great number of the new climbers out there but bolts have very little to do with it. Many of our most crowded climbs have no bolts or very few bolts. I would hate to see how badly jammed up it would get if you closed Rumny down. Rather than blaming Rumny for the crouds I thank it for serviceing a huge # of climbers who might otherwise be lined up at the base of Moby Grape, Vertigo, WG, etc, Etc, Etc...
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couchmaster
climber
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May 14, 2008 - 11:15pm PT
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Yup, what Kevin said, well spoken ! Bob as well. Thanks for the routes Bob! The reality is that if you chopped all of the bolted routes at Smith, the great easier classic cracks there would then be very, very, very crowded. It looks like me that Joe wants to dictate, demand and enforce what he thinks your style should be strictly from what his opinion of what he thinks that his style is. Frankly I think that kind of an attitude is wrong and sad. If a person doesn't like bolted lines, don't climb them.
Different areas have different traditions, beliefs and ethics based on history, geography and tradition. I see that changing very little, and it generally works pretty good. In fact, only a small step over an imaginary line of an area can lead to a great ruckus: see the South Face of Half Dome thread for instance. There is room for both styles to exist side by side, at different areas, and occasionally at the same area - like Smith, if WE think and act like adults and with some charity and understanding of our brothers.
I think that Bob really nailed a huge issue very succinctly just above: "...we are all climbers and share the responsibility to maintain our areas and keep access open for all of us."
Seem to me that bickering personal opinions and attitudes: can, has and will again led to outright closures for climbers. So although the RV's will still be driving down the roads in these areas, and everyone else will be running around the canyon floors and valleys willy nilly stomping the plants and killing them from their presence while enjoying the new trails, getting new water services, buildings built, new trails, new restrooms, entire areas plowed and graded for them: while our very small user group of climbers are banned outright or restricted due to the exact attitude being brought to this discussion.
Sadly and needlessly. In fact as Ron put it on the very first post: "It is becoming a more crowded world. We are going to have to reach an accommodation or see it all lost.
Exactly!
Regards:
Bill
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 15, 2008 - 01:35am PT
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Bob, there you go - we do actually agree on one thing - it's the sheer size of the total demographic that is the basic problem. But we disagree considerably on why that is, what drives it, what risks it poses, and how it might be managed. When on the order of 75% of the total steady-state demographic starts out in gyms, and only clips bolts, that establishes the 'foundation' the sport is now built upon. It's an undeniable fact. That a certain percentage end up branching entirely or partially into bouldering, trad, aid, or all-of-the-above feeding those sub-demographics is also now part of those continuous stats. But the sheer size in numbers of the total rock climbing demographic these days is overwhelmingly and solidly rooted in and driven by the gyms and sport climbing.
We also agree no aspect of climbing is without impact: all can create havoc with tops, bases, trails, bad actors, and crowding depending on the venue. But when it comes to fixed pro and impact on the rock itself it isn't even a contest - sport cimbing's impact on rock nationwide is substatial, significant, widespread, and undeniable. Fixed protection issues generate no shortage of friction not only within our community and with property owners and land managers, but with other user groups as well. Fixed protection issues are also typically a primary component of climbing management plans and often an arduous one to pin down and manage at that.
If this core, majority sub-demographic and the bolted lines that feed it can't self-manage it's use of fixed pro, then property owners and land managers have, will, can, and should step in and manage it for them. Red Rock NV is a perfect example of land managers trying to come to some workable terms relative to a climbing management plan and a principal issue of contention both among climbers and the BLM is the use of fixed pro. Recent blanket interpretations of the Wilderness Act relative to fixed pro are another perfect example - those harsh interpretations didn't simply materialize out of thin air for no reason. They were a response to excesses the 80's and 90's which created a heighten sense among federal land managers that they had better err on the side of caution - personally I can't blame them given what went on and recent high profile climber hijinxs have done nothing to give federal land managers any doubt they may have erred the wrong way.
At this point I'd say you and others promote climbing at your own peril and ignore the fixed pro excesses and abuse by the new core demographic of the sport at the peril of us all. And your promotional zeal to make climbing all the more 'accessible' to the masses and promote it as a cure-all for what ails society poses significant long-term prospects for more of the draconian regulations in place on the Flatirons, ever more crowding and access problems, and even the possibility of the ADA someday being employed against climbing by other user groups seeking to use the same resources and even routes we use. Clearly only time will tell which one of us has a more accurate perspective, but if the next twenty years are anything like the last twenty - and if fixed pro trends remain unabated - I'd say you are looking at a future of ever more stringent management, more out-right fixed pro bans, and more 'safety' oriented regulation imposed on climbing either as a whole or on a venue-by-venue basis.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 15, 2008 - 02:38am PT
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I'm finding this topic most interesting. First I'd like to say thanks to Bob for the good word;...I appreciate someone watching my back.... I admit; I am addicted to doing new routes....I can't help it;..it's like any other addiction....we all have em'. Bob and I share an addiction;...maybe we should go together to a halfway house and start a 13-step program to help us crack our addiction. Why do people love the Gunks and Joshua Tree so much?.....it's because people have great times there with their friends. It's probably isn't the rock, the length or quality of the climbs....it's just the quality of the experiences....it's top notch. It's personal, spiritual, physical, mental, emotion, ......top notch. I went to a slide show in Orange County that the late Todd Skinner gave;.....I was proud to have Todd announce that I traveled the furthest (on a school night) to see Todd and his pictures and hear his speel.......(Great show from a great man...)....anyways;...he had these totally awesome slides of proud cutting edge climbs on big walls from all over the planet;.....everyone was way in awe and occasionally someone let out a giggle or a wow or a hmmmmmmmm.........only.......(I mean ONLY) when a slide came up of our beloved Joshua Tree did the crowd start all cooing and gurgling like babies JUST BECAUSE they saw a few pictures of their own home crag......it made me really scratch my bald head and wonder why...why ...why do people love the low angle grainy dummy domes of Joshua Tree?........I could only come up with the good times, experieces, and adventures with friends that people have at Joshua Tree. This has nothing to do with sport, trad, bolt counts, stats, crowds, ratings, rock quality, length of climbs, ....it's the human thing. Maybe Joe and Bob and whoever might disagree with this or that.....(what do ya mean...maybe?...).......but I am very sure they agree on one thing;...a most important thing;...the human element. Climbing is fun, rad, and it rules. It's what we do , it's what makes us happy, and it's what we do with our friends that makes us different than those who don't share a chord, bivy, campfire, or drive to the crags. We hold this stuff near and dear to our hearts and small brains........we take our little sport "seriously" too;.....No internet B S, finger pointing, stats, or typed floggings can take away from anyone of us the cool days we have at the crags with our bros and homies. Some people ask me why I sometimes climb shitty new routes.....I tell them yeah;..the climb IS shitty, but I SURE had a great time with my friends doing that shitty new route...THAT is what is important to me and why I climb..... In this post, I have found myself agreeing somewhat with most people's views.......lots of people say lots that makes sense to me.....Bob, Joe, John S., Russ, Roy, Ron, Karl ...........you guys all seem right on with most of what you have to say.......maybe we ARE all around the same campfire, passing the beers and whatever.....all doing sort of the same thing with our climbing, and surely all talking smack......(Think about this;....to do 1500 FA....that's one a week for close to 30 years.......c'mon.....that's bordering on dementia.......give the old guy some slack....and some respect too..........Bob's been to a few BBQ's .....and around the block a few times......us FA addicts gotta stick together too.......we are easy targets but we can take a verbal belly punch or boot to the ass........hasn't slowed me or Bob down a bit....has it?...) Regardless of what I or anyone has to say about ANYTHING climbing, religion or porn.....today is Thursday;...in two days it will be Saturday.....I have these 2 new routes already scouted out;....they look really good....these steep thin cracks to a featured top out of face climbing on jugs.....they look really cool.....it's gonna be great! Cut through the crap and we are all wearing the same outfits.....some of us just have bigger clown noses than others......Ron's original question;...Heck yeah sport and trad can takes slugs off the same wine bottle...........
We may not agree with each other, but we sure know how to have a good time.....
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 15, 2008 - 03:03am PT
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I've been away for a week, and there's sure been lots going on around here. But I did read this thread - lots of good stuff here. (And while writing this, Kevin and Joseph added the above posts.) I want to suggest that we consider some other important perspectives. My main concern is that these issues aren't just internal to the climbing community. Bearing in mind that in comparison to many here I'm a modest climber, with much to be modest about (paraphrasing Oscar Wilde).
Several things may bear thought. One is that more and more we have to consider how others see climbers, the climbing community, and what we do. Most of the places where we climb in Canada and the U.S., at least in the western halves of those countries, are public land. That means the land is managed, usually by a government official. Management is an ongoing balancing act between competing interests. One of the big interests is conservation. Another is public use. Another is limited, and declining, budgets for such management. Lastly, public and governmental influences.
A second thing is that climbers sometimes pose problems, or at least are perceived to pose problems. The environmental ones are top of the list - real, fabricated, or simply perceived. Competition or conflicts with industry or other user groups are also there. And often the perception, or even symbolism, is as important as the actual impact, if any.
It's far too easy for a land manager with limited resources, presented with a fractious community that appears to be or actually is causing impacts, to impose restrictions or worse. They don't necessarily care about stylistic nuances which they may not have the time or interest to comprehend, or that it may only be a few climbers doing whatever is complained of. All too easily, we become seen as climbers = problem. All climbers, regardless of ideology. We're all in this together. And the easiest way to "manage" a problem is to eliminate it. Don't forget that land managers talk to each other, too.
To take an example, some routes in Yosemite were established through pre-'cleaning', including some quite famous ones. The impact of that cleaning, or its perceived impact, probably is of far more concern to land managers than that it may have happened on rappel. (See Niagara Escarpment.) In another example, the existence of bolted routes may be the main concern, in that it means more human traffic in an area = more impact.
A ban on motorized drilling, as in Yosemite, is a symbolic management tool. The bolts don't care how they're placed, but it sends a message about boundaries and impacts. Those who say they "develop" climbs or areas don't seem to have thought through how that sounds to others. "Create" is a much better verb, and IMHO more in accordance with the spirit of climbing, too.
Another concern is the growing number of climbers, not all of whom have a solid grounding in the roots of our game (it's not a sport), and the related growth of commercial mountain/climbing interests. And an aging and less white than formerly population - simple demographics are important.
Another very large issue we forget is how much freedom we've been given, even if inadvertently, to do what we want. And we forget just how fortunate we are to be who we are doing what we do. $5 or $10/gallon gas would have more effect on us than debates about style ever could.
Some say that the story of Cain and Abel is a metaphor for humanity. One aspect of it is to illustrate the never-ending battle between the pastoral/herding peoples (Abel), who wanted the land as it was, and the agricultural peoples (Cain), who took the bit about mastering the earth and everything on it seriously. In the long run, the agriculturalists always win. Always. God fights on the side of the heaviest artillery. Which seems to be Joseph's fear.
Hopefully someone like Mick Ryan will chip in as to the modern situation, but I believe that bolting, let alone rap bolting, is still very limited in England, and especially also in Wales and Scotland. Perhaps at some limestone crags, and quarries, but that's all. They decided long ago, perhaps limited by technology and other things, that what little rock they had, had to be managed carefully. 50 million people in such a small area causes such decisions. For example, the rock in North Wales is volcanic, and admirably suited to "sport" climbing - steep, lots of little edges, sometimes not many cracks. Bolts few and far between. But you'd never live it down if you placed a bolt, let alone a rap bolt, on Clogwyn d'ur Arddu.
Of course, it's easy to observe that those Britons so interested can always visit the Continent for their fix of sport climbing. Whether limitations on bolting have affected British climbing standards (difficulty is far from everything) is another matter.
The east Germans went that way also, for their own reasons, as to some extent did the Scandinavians. There are Norwegian guidebooks that state at the front, in English, French, and German, that the area simply isn't a place for sport climbing, and that those interested in it should seek elsewhere. They have bolted cliffs, but not a lot.
It also seems to have been what happened at the Shawangunks.
So let's have some perspective here. I've been climbing since I was 14, and have seen some changes. Technology and technique has gotten much better, and allowed many things to happen. Perhaps that will continue. But we can never forget other perspectives - we're not always in the driver's seat.
That's why things like the FaceLift are so important. They give us credibility, a seat at the table. More and more, we're going to need one.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 15, 2008 - 08:21am PT
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The Ward Smiths, Bob D. Brad Whites, Mark Sprauge, and George Hurleys etc. of the the world are not the ones who get climbing areas shut down. It's guys like Joe or Jstan writeing nasty letters to officials blameing other climbers for not playing fair who can cause a real bureacratic ruckus!... You wonder why I snuck George in there? Well he does put up a fair share of new routs and many are bolt protected and he dosen't seem to mind if the bolts get placed on rappell;)
Here is annother thought. Tim K. contributes absolutely nothing to the climbing community except a bolt that no one will ever clip when he puts up a 5.13X @ Cathedral.
When Mark Sprague , Ward Smith, Etc, put up a new 8,9,10,11,12 etc, they are contributing possitivly to the community. They are putting up routs that people will climb and that helps distribute the climbers so that everyone can have a decent day and not spend the whole weekend waiting in line.
Heck, I only sport climb a half a dozen times a year but I don't see the sport climbs as some evil transgression. I certainly don't see the bolt itself as some evil devil object as Joe seems to?? The bolt is just a tool that can be used well or poorly. Obviously as a community we have many diferent opinions on what well and poorly are....
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goatboy smellz
climber
colorado
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May 15, 2008 - 08:47am PT
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Obama & Gordon in '08
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 15, 2008 - 10:25am PT
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Some great posts on this thread
"A ban on motorized drilling, as in Yosemite, is a symbolic management tool. The bolts don't care how they're placed, but it sends a message about boundaries and impacts. "
I tend to think the ban on motorized drilling is more inspired by the fact that the wilderness act prohibits use of any motorized tools and everything above 150 feet or so in Yosemite is considered wilderness.
Could be wrong
Peace
Karl
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couchmaster
climber
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May 15, 2008 - 10:30am PT
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Holy Sh#t Kevin: you just nailed that one!
Kevin said: " healyje,
You make a good case, generally, against sport climbing. About as good as it can be. I know where you're coming from because I started climbing in the late 60's, and I would have been horrified if I could have seen, then, what's going on today.
Climbing was a different game then, maybe it hasn't changed for you, and that's admirable, noble even. I hope you can still find places to avoid the modern climbing game. You gotta accept, though, that your approach to climbing is just as limiting and objectionable to some sport climbers as theirs is to you. It's a wash - we live in a democracy (or did).
Your style is easier on the rock, I suppose - if you don't clean dirt, lichen and plants from the routes you do. My experience has been that often those cracks you need to place those little cam thingies in often have organic matter in the way. Really, bolts are less environmentally destructive, or altering, than cleaning. Maybe they're visibly unnatural, but surely you agree they have no real detrimental effect on "the environment" other than that.
Which brings me to the point I wanted to make.
From my experience, "land managers" and law enforcement officers, as a group, just don't like climbers, as a group. They think climbing is dangerous, that climbers are crazy, climbers are dirtbags, climbers smoke pot, drink alcohol, camp illegally, and disrespect authority. Climbing and climbers are all these things and so much more, but this is America - land of the free, home of the brave, they know that.
So they try to use bolting, or bolting bans, as an excuse to control, limit, or eliminate climbers from the areas they manage. That's one of the only ways to stop climbers from climbing. That and closures, often based on bogus "science", to protect wildlife. I really haven't seen the blatant, high profile grid bolting you fear would justify such action, anywhere. If it exists, the routes would be good candidates for removal.
Climbers aren't stupid, some might be, but as a group, they seem to make good decisions. Land managers should be learning this by now (some seem to be), and adopting bolting regulations nationwide - where bolts genuinely degrade the PUBLIC'S wilderness experience. Nothing wrong with that, as long as climbers are included in the discussion.
At least 99% of bolts are never seen by anyone who's bothered by them. All the fuss within the climbing community just draws attention to the issue, especially if the public, or the Man in particular, is listening in.
Climbers complaining to land managers about bolting is counterproductive, at best.
Bolts and fixed anchors should be discussed with land managers in terms of the safety they provide for climbers. Those guys are into safety. Big Time. If you think sportclimbers are into safety...
Perfectly spoken! I would only add, that in my discussion with "land mangers", it isn't so much that climbers are dirtbags or lowlifes, but that climbers tend to take up more of their time, effort and resources for the amount of people in that group. In addition they know us as very quarrelsome and almost excessively zealously vocal. A few exceptions do exist of course.
I personally would like to see less bolts used. What I do see is that most areas "self-manage" quite well. That is, where-in even at an area with no cracks where bolting for protection is mandatory and is the norm, the guy who starts excessively grid bolting, bolting too close or squeezing in routes gets slammed by his buddies. Certainly Growing up in Yos is an example of this "self-management" at work at an area based on a strong historical style of ground up and hand-bolting. Had that not happened on the internet, Sean and Doug would have still heard much of that very same talk face to face from Coz, Bachar etc etc....which would have been a better thing as well, as the spoken word usually translates better than the written. However, the rules in Yos are dramatically different than at Smith Rocks State Park, yet both areas are a joy to climb at- as everyone here knows, and both areas see this "self-management". Even the recently cleaned off little chosspile near here has seen that kind of peer pressure as various folks showed up to bolt faces and/or clean cracks.
Thats what I would like to continue to see.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 15, 2008 - 11:22am PT
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Law enforcement usually only gets involved when we make asses out of ouselfs. Dumping stove fuel on the ground and tourching it, burning pallets, makeing noise, smokeing dope and boozing where the tourists and their kids can see/smell hear it. Breaking rules and then posting videos of it, fixing ropes for too long and fixing draws, camping illeagaly, crapping in the wrong places, eroding the crap out of approaches, dogs off the leash, etc. and ocasionaly crying to them about someone chopping our bolts or placeing them in a way that we don't agree with..........
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 15, 2008 - 11:34am PT
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kevin wrote;Your perspective would be more well rounded - even if it only confirmed your present stance.
There lis one of roadblocks facing Joe...his lack of perspectiive and his limited background. He is so stuck in his own Dogma It keep him from seeing what really exist.
To this point he still hasn't answer my question on how many trad-climbers also sport climb...he know the answer and it breaks down his case and his madman ramblings about sport climbers and gym climbers.
This is a climbers issue...period. He refuses to look at the truth and reality of the situation that most sport areas are being managed and actually quite well. Sport climbers are more prone to work with land managers and do what it take to keep access open...one only has to look at the link I provided to see that.
The real issue with Joe come down to style...funny coming from someone who might have been of one of the first sport climbers in the US with his top-roping style in the mid-70's. He just really dislikes the new breed and what they do.
The San Luis Valley and Shelf Rd are well managed areas that continue to draw climbers from the around the US and world. That will continue (even with more new routes) because the climbers were pro-active and actually did something other than beating a dead horse like Joe.
Todd....we are a little twisted...no?? Keep up the good work and take care of that beautiful family of your.
Couchmaster wrote:I personally would like to see less bolts used. What I do see is that most areas "self-manage" quite well.
This is the difference between a well rounded climber and Joe...opinions based on reality.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 15, 2008 - 11:59am PT
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Joe wrote: When on the order of 75% of the total steady-state demographic starts out in gyms, and only clips bolts, that establishes the 'foundation' the sport is now built upon.
Do your arbitrary numbers continue to change based on how many beers you have drank or how much weed you have smoked??
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jstan
climber
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May 15, 2008 - 12:01pm PT
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Have been busy so I have missed all this. Short of time so will TRY to get to the point.
1. I repeat another’s post from above.
….”those who think their opinion matters.”
The ruin of us all lies ahead on that road. It is like the Revolutionary War never happened. And this sort of thing is creeping in again and again. I have to have “climbing credentials” before my ideas need to be considered!
People all over this planet are fighting against this kind of thinking. We need to fight against it here as well. We simply must not accept it.
2. Oh yes I know the Gunks is superb for climbing. In my “first bolt” post with 7(?) points back up there somewhere I said we are trying to get to a world where there are indeed bolts. We will get there when people pretty generally feel they have been heard and we have an acceptable compromise.
I commented on “the first bolt” because that first bolt committed us to this excruciating discussion on ST and committed us to the discussion we have been having for the last 30 years. I do hope it was a good route!
Above someone pointed out we are on a path to ever increasing population density. This is the kind of longer term thinking we very much need. No matter how many rock gyms or other avenues exist there will never be that many climbers and very powerful forces will ever be trying to divert public lands for their purposes. If we as climbers have a record in the use of public lands that can be attacked we will never be able to ally ourselves effectively with others and will never be able to fight against those powerful forces. If we want public lands to be protected we need to be proud of the uses we ourselves have made of those lands. Recent municipal actions and climbing area closures suggest we need to examine ourselves.
Gotta go.
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WBraun
climber
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May 15, 2008 - 12:21pm PT
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Nice post Kevin.
Bob you don't always have to attack people with words like: Joe "Do your arbitrary numbers continue to change based on how many beers you have drank or how much weed you have smoked??"
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 15, 2008 - 12:28pm PT
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Werner....it was a lighthearted joke. Relax. Funny that you didn't come my defense when I was being being called names along with my wife.
You got a lot of balls.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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May 15, 2008 - 12:56pm PT
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Jstan, your misinterpreting what I wrote. Its probably my fault as I kept it so short.
You said: "No Bob. If people took into consideration the opinions of others before placing bolts we would have bolts, but no bolting problem."
So I asked: "Who would we ask? Those who think their opinion matters? They are usually the ones who are not climbing."
Some friends and I are putting up new routes around Donner each year. Theres not a Norcal advice line for bolting around Tahoe. Who should I ask: you and Healy? Hahaha. You both think your opinion matters. But it doesn't. You don't live or climb here. Its got nothing to do with "climbing credentials", but is a local issue.
I always enjoy your posts. But you writing land agencies and bureaucrats to whine about bolts is a far bigger problem then me and some friends drilling w/o seeking every as#@&%es opinion on whether they agree with our decision to drill.
But what do we know. the friends I climb with have only been climbing for 20+ years, fa's of trad and sport lines in Utah, Az, and CA. You f*#kers from out of state who climbed in the 70's obviously know better than us how we should all be climbing. Got a phone # so we can call you from the crags to get your unwanted and uninformed opinions about our local crags and routes?
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