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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2013 - 10:31am PT
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Dude,
100% tongue-in-cheek response on my part.
I've been wanting to trot out that little charade and you just set me up to deliver it, so thanks!
*Though all of the components of my response are realistic,
I have a very lighthearted position on the importance of them and for the sake of humor like to broadcast them as though it really matters in this crazy world.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 14, 2013 - 12:16pm PT
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sorry, was out all day yesterday failing on a Sacherer classic... watch this local channel for a TR
Mark Powell in Yosemite Valley, FAs
Arrowhead Arete 5.9 1956 Mark Powell Bill Feuerer
East Arrowhead Chimney (Nagasaki My Love) 5.8 A2 III 1956 Mark Powell Warren Harding
Kat Pinnacle, Northwest Corner 5.7 A2 1956 Mark Powell Don Wilson
Liberty Cap, South Face 5.8 A3 IV 1956 Mark Powell Royal Robbins Joe Fitschen
Lower Cathedral Rock, East Buttress 5.8 A3 IV 1956 Mark Powell Jerry Gallwas Don Wilson
Nagasaki My Love (East Arrowhead Chimney) 5.8 A2 III 1956 Mark Powell Warren Harding
The Block 5.5 1957 Mark Powell
Bridalveil East 5.8 A2 III 1957 Mark Powell Warren Harding
East Arrowhead Buttress, Overhang Bypass 5.7 III 1957 Mark Powell Wally Reed Warren Harding
East Arrowhead Buttress, Overhang Route 5.8 A2 III 1957 Mark Powell Wayne Merry
Lower Cathedral Rock, North Buttress 5.8 A4 V 1957 Mark Powell Bill Feuerer
Lower Watkins Pinnacle A3 II 1957 Mark Powell Herb Swedlund Wally Reed George Sessions Merle Alley
North Dome, South Face Route III 1957 Mark Powell Wally Reed
Powell-Reed 5.7 A3 IV 1957 Mark Powell Wally Reed
The Footstool, Right Side 5.4 1959 Mark Powell Beverly Powell Bill Feuerer
Nickel Pinnacle from the Notch 5.9 I 1959 Mark Powell George Whitmore
Penny Pinnacle; East Arete 5.9 I 1959 Mark Powell Bill Feuerer
Inconsolable Buttress, The 5.7 A3 III 1960 Mark Powell Beverly Powell Dave Rearick
The Turret 5.8 A2 IV 1962 Bob Kamps Mark Powell
Lower Cathedral Spire, Northeast Face 5.9 1963 Mark Powell Frank Sacherer Bob Kamps
The Flakes 5.8 1964 Frank Sacherer Mark Powell
Reed's Pinnacle Direct 5.10a 1964 Frank Sacherer Mark Powell Wally Reed Gary Colliver Andy Lichman Chris Fredricks
The Cobra 5.9 A2 IV 1966 Mark Powell Bob Kamps
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 14, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
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this is what I have on the DNB:
Middle Cathedral Rock, Direct North Buttress FA 1962 Yvon Chouinard Steve Roper FFA 1965 Frank Sacherer Eric Beck
Middle Cathedral Rock, North Buttress FA 1954 Warren Harding Frank Tarver Craig Holden John Whitmer FFA 1964 Frank Sacherer Jim Bridwell
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 14, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
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oh... truth be told, Hourglass Right Side (which in my now considered opinion is much harder than Ahab) but I'm not in shape for any OW these days, let alone that one... maybe after your 15th or 16th lap on the 3rd pitch it would seem to be easier...
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MH2
climber
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Apr 14, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
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Can this climb be saved?
Do we need to create an organization and raise funds to protect the cracks?
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 14, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
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So wait. Bouldering is trad now?!
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 14, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
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It's mostly only super highballs they employ those tactics for no?
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 14, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
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Oh, so it's only trad without pad...
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MH2
climber
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Apr 14, 2013 - 02:59pm PT
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The picture Mark Force posted of Kevin Leary on The Gong Show roof reminds me that things have changed.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 14, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
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Oh so it's only trad with hexes and nuts then?
(Just playing devil's advocate and bumping tar's masterpiece...)
;)
Edit someone has to go chop that bolt!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
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Bouldering with a top rope: that would have been an oxymoron BITD.
This would just have made it a top rope, not a boulder problem. After that point, semantically, to do it without a top rope I suppose it would have been called a rehearsed solo.
Mike Paul did this on the Woodson boulders. He called them solos.
If there is anything which would distinguish trad bouldering from current bouldering it would be a top rope. Bouldering is only trad because it was part of what we did as our training and having fun. I can't see that we lay claim to any distinction particularly between bouldering then and bouldering now.
I don't think pads really come into it that much except that we didn't have or use them and so we had to engage in more self-reliance. Self-reliance is a big feature of Trad. We couldn't really have a rule of omission for something that didn't exist. If modern trad climbers disdain pads, it's only out of some emotional anchoring I can't understand.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2013 - 03:06pm PT
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Thank you Mr. Hartouni, You the Man!
Now that Ed has given us a boost we can examine the record of Mark Powell for evidence of his contribution to the genesis of TRAD!
Arrowhead Arete 5.9 1956 Mark Powell Bill Feuerer
Originally rated 5.8 -most of us over 40 probably know this. Genesis of the long hard free climb?
Nickel Pinnacle from the Notch 5.9 I 1959 Mark Powell George Whitmore
Penny Pinnacle; East Arete 5.9 I 1959 Mark Powell Bill Feuerer
So he's solidly climbing 5.9 in and around 1959. Well, he's got rhythm that much is clear!
Just how hard was 5.9 in 1959??? (That's like asking: WHAT IS TRAD?)
Lower Cathedral Spire, Northeast Face 5.9 1963 Mark Powell Frank Sacherer Bob Kamps
By 1963 he, Sacherer, and Bob Kamps were continuing to establish the now beloved vernacular of the long hard free climb, or something akin to it, not to say this is the best or most prominent early 60s example extant.
(As an aside: what are the best examples? Steck Salathe? East buttress of El Capitan? How do we deal with the inevitable aid involved in trying to understand their focuse on free and etc.)
The Flakes 5.8 1964 Frank Sacherer Mark Powell
Another long free climb, not so hard but perhaps significant in the sense that there is no aid and it's on that nebulous ground adjacent to Middle Cathedral Apron. It may have been something of a watershed in free climbing for all I know. It involves lots of face climbing between crack systems does it not? … or so I imagine I've never done it. Was it something new in a visionary sense: a long free route in the absence of an obvious crack line?
Reed's Pinnacle Direct 5.10a 1964 Frank Sacherer Mark Powell Wally Reed Gary Colliver Andy Lichman Chris Fredricks
Here he's continuing to be a player by helping to establish one of the seminal, though not necessarily the hardest, free lines of Yosemite by 1964. And I believe this is after the ankle problem?
Someone with more knowledge, personal knowledge, might deconstruct Hartouni's list more cogently in service of depicting Powell's focus on free climbing.
I'd also like to see his list of first ascents at Taquitz, as I think he was quite influential there?
By Higgins' definition of course, the first ascent component of Trad is one of the more essential in understanding and defining it. This is because first ascents are where players impose, if you will, their vision upon the record.
The first ascent record is however, only a partial view of one's overall contribution, because being influential isn't just about first ascents, no, it's also about the style in which one climbs in general and how it's perceived and absorbed by the community at large. An individual climber's typical style and how they choose to practice it certainly influences prevalent styles and goals within the community at large; simply by virtue of reinforcing or rejecting ways of engaging the game. Speaking here toward prevalent styles like Trad, for instance, or free climbing specifically and how aid is engaged within the context of the free climbing effort -which as we've defined, is the main thrust of Trad.
For example, my only contribution in terms of first ascents in the Big Valley, is something called: GUIDE'S ROUTE, which is a 5.7 museum climb, specifically done without bolts to keep the riffraff off so that I might repeat it with other clients in peace and quiet. Actually I also originally just did it as a date climb in the pursuit of getting laid. Point being, if you look at my record I'm a 5.7 climber in Yosemite. But I guided Astroman in 1982, leading every pitch all free with no falls -much the same as others were also doing this way to consolidate their mastery of that route. (Albeit in my case, with one bivouac for the sake of the clients, who jumared). Also repeated the standard list of classics; Rostrum, Freestone, Beggars Buttress, and The Crucifix and the Gold Wall (both with some aid where most were using it at the time). So besides just being a max shitt talker as I am known today, I was a consolidator of the notion that long free climbs done in good style were a worthy goal. That represents my influence in Yosemite specifically.
So what was Mark Powell doing on a daily basis in terms of free climbing and how can we know this? I believe he was very influential in defining and elevating Trad before it had a name; this along with Robbins, Sacherer, Pratt, Kamps, Ament, Beck, et al.
Why does Powell matter in a discussion of Trad? Because inasmuch as Trad is defined in terms of a very sharp focus on how free climbing is pursued, I think this period in time and people like Mark Powell specifically represent the genesis of Trad. That's why!
Why the emphasis on history? Because this, my friends, is at the heart of Trad, which is a practice of understanding, actually revering, what comes before us and building and refining on those things in service of that tradition through the process of emulation. And specifically so in this country, it was the practice of climbers throughout the 70s and early 80s to continue to refine and develop a tradition, now known as Trad, which was established and handed to us by guys like Powell.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
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He's just messing with us.
But it's a springboard to examine what is valuable about nutcraft and the related skills that go along with it which help inform a trad climber's adaptability and self-reliance.
I'll have to crank that one up and get back to the discussion with my presentation on minimalism and its benefits in adapting to a committing environment…
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Apr 14, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
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Is tele skiing in plastic boots trad?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
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Skinny skis & Leather, young pup.
Didn't you see my spiffy signage spoof upthread, to include Tar w/skinny skis in hand AND Tar on the Toilet? Less climbing, more reading for you big boy!
Don't make me repost that right here, right now!!!
If that's what duty requires I'll do it and that's not a warning ... that's a promise. I'll entertain goofiness at all costs.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2013 - 03:47pm PT
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In truth, it's only trad as long as you're not using really heavy bindings and risers with Alpine weight plastic boots; a lightweight plastic boot passes muster. Oh, and if you're cool you don't use wall-to-wall skins, just narrow 2 inch more minimal ones so you don't just truck straight up terrain with total disregard for contour. This according to Doug Robinson. God of all things three pin. Although I'm told he isn't actually the most elegant thing out on the snows under the sun, regardless of kit.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
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Not so fast Leggs, good cause and everything, but hit and run is not trad.
We'd appreciate a picture or two, something erudite, overwrought, and weighty, or just some down-home smack talking?
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Apr 14, 2013 - 03:53pm PT
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Now that I am done with real rock for today I have caught up on the the Rules of Bullshit in Qualifying for Trad. Please move all my Tower Routes, Needles Routes, Indian Creek Area Routes etc to the domain Sport Climbs with Gear.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Apr 14, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
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That's usually how I correct the younger folks I climb with sometimes. They'll ask if a certain route is a Trad route, & I'll reply that it's a gear route, anyway. After scoffing at the term first, though. ;-)
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