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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 28, 2012 - 08:38pm PT
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Hi Anders, hope you're getting some fun in this weekend. Are you positive about the power lines not being run up the same tower line? I don't see any problem with that practice. The live wire might be higher than the gondola cable, but it's the perfect path to the upper station.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 28, 2012 - 09:44pm PT
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Well I don't find it uninteresting at all; quite the contrary. There's a reward for the first person to tell us why they had the covenant worded in that particular way.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 29, 2012 - 01:27am PT
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I don't know if you have a stupid amount of free time on your hands like I do, but I'm really curious about a pro's take on it.
Sometimes I have free time, sometimes I don't. Right now, I don't. My monthly pub is on deadline for mid-next week, and my marriage requires my presence at the Railyard tomorrow with shoes, harness, and chalkbag. I worked today, so there may just be time to save both marriage and job, but there won't be much free time till next Friday. Which I will probably declare to be a holiday and drive to Squamish. Weather being reasonable.
I would like to offer some thoughts about your link, but just don't have time right now. However, while you wait, think about one thing: How did you learn about what the news media did to that poor young girl?
In the meantime, back to the regularly scheduled program in this slot -- Selfish climbers and mountain bikers gang up with rapacious developers to destroy a Provincial Park despite the best efforts of environmentally conscious yuppie latte sippers from the big city.
Yeah, I know, it's too long to be a Pulitzer-grade headline, but it does sum things up.
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Apr 29, 2012 - 02:23am PT
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Gf great minds think alike. But who is the best party to sue them
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Apr 29, 2012 - 02:39am PT
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Re: the bear issue in Whistler - I can't speak with certainty about what's happening up there these days, other than the fact that there was such an outcry about the needless deaths of these animals in the '90s that Blackcomb hired a guy by the name of Mike Allen (if memory serves me properly) to help them with the bear problem - I met him before he got the job & he's a good guy, so I hope things have improved.
Yes, plenty of bears were shot by "conservation" officers when I worked there in the '90s. The crime that got these animals killed was nearly always garbage that was stored improperly outside businesses and/or residences. Sometimes they were lured by someone who was cooking food outside (or indoors with the door wide open). The phone call was made, and nearly always the bear was shot - and with no penalty that I ever heard about to the nitwit(s) who attracted it in the first place.
Some time ago I recommended that people concerned about the gondola read a book by Sid Marty titled "Men for the Mountains". Apparently nobody bothered since, on top of being a good read, it addressed the impact of large numbers of tourists on indigenous wildlife: in short, more tourists, more dead wildlife - I've seen more than one dead bear lying at the side of the S2S highway. Again - more traffic - more dead wildlife.
Hamish - I don't know whether I was in such a hurry to make my point or what, but do you seriously think that I'm dumb enough to think that the lifties actually got free housing up there? The CORPORATIONS got free housing (and an improved highway) built for them at taxpayer expense, and I have no doubt that the lifties (also taxpayers) get gouged plenty for housing. Also, please spare me the fairy tale about corporations creating an earthly paradise for us lesser mortals with their generous tax contributions - anyone with a trace of objectivity is aware that they're paying the lowest tax rates in modern Canadian history, and they're making out like bandits. Furthermore, their tax payments sure aren't being spent to protect wilderness.
Good to hear that guides are making bucks out of their monopoly in provincial parks. I don't have a problem with that, but if they were ripping chunks of Class "A" parks apart to increase their customer base, I'd have a huge objection to their presence.
By the way, if they can send guide trainees from Alberta to Squamish, what would the problem be with a similar institution based in Squamish sending their trainees elsewhere for specialized training?
Furthermore, it's not outrageous to expect that local jobs go to locals and it mystifies me why you would mention something so self-evident. About the only thing that I could criticize about the behaviour of locals anywhere is their lack of a long-term vision for the future of their communities. If I recall correctly, even you agreed that if these towns demanded that their areas had control of their timber, then they just might take a more long-term view of the resource extraction process. Sometimes fresh perspectives can actually benefit a community.
Finally, no , I don't claim to speak for anyone other than those who actually respect Class "A" park boundaries. However, it seems to me that the selfless generosity of spirit of which so many profess to be the sole guardians could be less hypocritically evinced by arranging a shuttle bus service to the Downtown East Side to introduce children and families to a wilderness that many of them have never seen - largely because they don't have a spare thirty bucks for a gondola lift ticket. Even poor people like beautiful things.
Hey, Bruce MacD - keep up the good work.
And Tami: how does it feel to be so special?
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 29, 2012 - 11:55am PT
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Hi Woz. We miss you over here, by the way.
In my earlier post, I wasn't talking about corporate taxes, I was merely saying the gov't does pretty well when whistler real estate moves around.
Even at a conservative rate of two sales/day and at an average of one million each sale, you're looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of 25-30,000.00/ day for the P.P.tax amounts. That's a cool million/month for absolutely nothing. You can see when the real estate market really gets hopping, this number swells accordingly.
Here's another whistler number for you. HST: take any month out of Jan., Feb., or Mar., @ 150,000 skier visits/mo., let's be ultra-conservative and say each visit reflects $20.00 into the HST bucket. And that is ULTRA conservative, btw. That's another cool three million/ month generated by that little piece of Hollywood North.
Would you like to explore the Hotel Tax?
I'm just pointing out Whistler isn't all that bad for the gov't.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 29, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
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It would be interesting to look at all the direct and indirect subsidies that the provincial government has given Whistler-Blackcomb over the last 35 or more years, and see whether Whistler-related taxes cover them. Seems doubtful.
Jim has covered the gondola + transmission line issue, which a friend who has worked building gondolas mentioned to me.
Yes, I'm afraid that TLC bears much of the responsibility for what has happened. The big questions being whether it will take legal action to enforce its rights, or has sufficient political influence to cause the provincial government to stop the project, or at least interject a plausible public process. I was at the meeting in 2004 at MEC where TLC was given its instructions, and they very clearly included acquiring the gravel pit (MEC put in $100,000), renting it out to the highway project, and not selling it until there was a conservation covenant preventing a gondola, or any other inappropriate development. Effective conservation covenants are bread and butter to TLC, other land trusts, and the provincial government.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 29, 2012 - 12:58pm PT
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Do you still have a signed copy of those instructions? Could be handy.
Yes, Jim did cover the tranmission line question, and no, they won't be running a separate power line up the slope beside the tram. They'll run a light line up the service road, if they get approval.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 29, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
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There would be a simple power connection for the lower terminal, and at least for the bottom of the gondola. Maybe that's what was being talked about. (Do you need to 'pull' from above, and 'push' from below? Or both?) Even if they don't need to power the gondola from above, they need power for the cafe and other tourist attractions. My source (definitely knowledgeable) simply said that they can't hang power lines on the gondola towers, which suggests that a separate line is needed - beside, underground, another route. It seems an interesting side-issue, though outside my knowledge.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 29, 2012 - 01:10pm PT
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Which means quite a lot of power to the upper end, for gondola plus tourist attractions. If you can't hang the power line on the towers, how's it going to get there?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 29, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
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You mean, of course, "Why doesn't BC Parks, as part of its independent public review of the proposal, ask them?" and "Why don't you ask that at the public meetings that BC Parks will be holding?" Don't you?
Whatever else, they probably won't be powering it with an "IPP" in upper Shannon Creek.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 29, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
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The main power for the tram will all come from the base; kind of a different design. Up top there will be a little PTO off one of the wheels to help generate power. They'll also do wind, solar, and maybe water power to help out with the small amount of power required up there. There may also be a small transmission line running up th fsr., as a back up.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 29, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
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Oh come on Bruce, that would be way too easy and leave no room for speculation, rumours, and exaggeration.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Apr 29, 2012 - 02:07pm PT
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Anders is using what little of a public process that exists to cajole, goad, and elicit information from the proponents. It is how the task is done and helps bring the facts, not always convenient to the proponents, to light.
Good work Anders.
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Tricouni
Mountain climber
Vancouver
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Apr 29, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
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I don't think these things do much good, but I've signed it and and posted it on my Facebook page.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 29, 2012 - 07:43pm PT
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It's almost the end of another beautiful weekend in Squamish and another two days for myself asking every recreator I've run into their opinion on the gondola. It continues to be a landslide for the "pro" side. Some of these people are pretty hard core outdoorsers and they are well travelled.
I've been asking for about a month now and the negative crowd might total five percent, half of which are still convinced the gondola climbs the Chief.
Interestingly enough, a recurring theme has been many people saying how much they are annoyed by the elitest argument of "if you want that view so badly, just hike on up there". There is a substantial portion of our society that simply can't make that hike.
Lots of people out there willing to share their stuff, just like we try to teach our kids.
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Tricouni
Mountain climber
Vancouver
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Apr 29, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
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Interestingly enough, a recurring theme has been many people saying how much they are annoyed by the elitest argument of "if you want that view so badly, just hike on up there". There is a substantial portion of our society that simply can't make that hike.
Lots of people out there willing to share their stuff, just like we try to teach our kids
Yikes. I didn't hear anything like those elitist views at Britannia. Reminds me of a short-lived proposal in the late 1950s to put a road into Garibaldi Lake, so that those who were unable to make the then-demanding trek into the lake could enjoy the views and the meadows. Why not?
You are probably correct that the majority of Squamish/Whistler/Vancouver people support the project. The Squamish Chief online poll (431 votes) showed 21% opposed, 33% "not crazy about it but let's go ahead", and 38% "it's fine." Like all such polls, far from a random sample and thus far from reliable, but suggestive at least.
But what's wrong with a public hearing about removing land from the park? What's wrong with following due process?
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Apr 29, 2012 - 09:20pm PT
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Bruce, with your neighbor you had clearly defined property rights and the issue was a civil matter between you and him.
With this gondola proposal, there is not a clear legal mechanism for re-configuring the Parks' boundaries, and a fear exists among some that the system is gamed towards the proponents because of the shared interests between local/provincial governments and the developers, those being taxes and profits.
The lower mainland's growing population will most likely demand access to its public assets by a pay-per-use or other permit program rather than the fully commercial enterprises like this gondola that the BC leadership seems to currently prefer.
The gondola itself is less the problem than the precedent of on-demand BC Parks adjustments to suit commercial development. In this case, many of the questions being asked on this thread should have been addressed within the process of public and private vetting and be easily available for all to find and study.
This is not a simple civil disagreement with clear rights, but rather a seat of the pants series of administrative maneuvers that clearly benefits one party and could set an unfavorable precedent for the future.
Everyone has brought good points to this discussion and though it is not a replacement of public procedure, these are the types of questions that should be asked.
Anyway, last day of the season at Mt. Baker and wasted it by skating all over the area trying to stay fit enough to climb...
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 29, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
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Read my little blurb up higher regarding the power question. I e-mailed for that information earlier this weekend.
Yes, Mr. Tricouni, it was a little strange to hear more than one of those complaints about being told to go hike up if you want the view. I'm thinking that quote may have been contained in one of the letters to the local paper.
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