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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 27, 2012 - 05:29pm PT
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There's a reason we all wear padded bike shorts.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 27, 2012 - 05:35pm PT
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How are you guys doing here in gondola-land? Happy as clams, I hope. Anyway, seems clear that there's no need to put a quarter in any of you, although you could think more critically about the proposal. Perhaps you've bought into the dreams being promoted, but check on the reality, too.
We had a FOSC committee meeting in Squamish last night, attended by eight. I was the token non-Squamishite. (Sorry, Bruce - forgot to invite you, again.) Discussing strategy and next steps - we've done reasonably well, given only a few weeks to get organized, but there's more to do. One thing we're considering is holding independent public meetings in Squamish and Vancouver, where information on the proposal could be presented, the pros and cons discussed, and citizens invited to comment to government. (That is, if BC Parks/the Ministry of Environment doesn't hold such meetings.) We'd invite everyone interested, including the governments and media. We don't have the resources to scrutinize the proposal in the way that the governments, especially BC Parks, should be doing. But we'd see that there was a reasonable process for meetings, and that they were open. No more informercials.
You guys really ought to think about the Habrich road opening issue. The developers say they'd spend $15 - $20 million on the first phase. They need to protect that investment. One way to do so is by not allowing private vehicle access anywhere near the upper terminal. When asked about this last week, they pretty much admitted that they didn't want the road to be open. Reduces worry about vandalism, fires, etc, plus ensures a captive market. Such access would also require consent from Squamish, B.C. Parks, and the Ministry of Forests. Seems most likely that there'd be parking somewhere low down, maybe some distance up the road, but that'd be it. If they're claiming otherwise, get it from all four+ parties in writing, from someone with the power to enforce it.
Another interesting one is power. A friend with experience in these matters tells us that the power line can't go up with or on the gondola towers. Equals a separate line for power, either parallel to the gondola, or following the road. (Or perhaps a generator?) The devil as always is in the details, but in the big picture, if a promise ain't in writing, and ain't made to someone willing to enforce, it ain't worth a pitcher of warm spit.
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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Apr 27, 2012 - 06:23pm PT
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Considering both Seymour and Cypress close the roads at night for security concerns its not really a question if we will be allowed access after hours...
Hamish it wasnt long ago that Cypress wouldnt allow you to cross their land to access the park...I believe it was a dedicated few that fought so we could access trails in the park with out being paying customers to Cypress.
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Apr 27, 2012 - 07:05pm PT
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Habritch and Sky Pilot access control? It will be completely ceded to the developers. No access before or after certain hours. Habritch road blocked completely to any public use
This isn't just about a gravel pit and two pylons in the park.
Suck on that one boys and girls.
Good bye mountain biking dreams
Locals buck up 250 a year for discount pass and the rest of the climbers pony up 50+ bucks to some c*#ks@ckers from Whistler to get to an area that they previously had free unrestricted access?
You know a one time pass to ride up Grouse is 90 bucks don't you.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Apr 27, 2012 - 07:29pm PT
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Bruce - considering that most reasonable people would agree that I am aged (62) and infirm (nobody's business), I find it offensive that you would claim to be doing me or others older than me a favour by ripping a hole in a Class "A" park to give us a $30(?) look at Howe Sound, particularly when the proposal comes from a for-profit enterprise. If I want a nature fix, I'll get it somewhere else.
The Smoke Bluffs, as you well know, is a completely different story from the above - the locals had a claim on that area long before climbers starting hanging around the place in any measurable numbers.
As for relevance in terms of existing values, current users, and alleged significant contribution to society, I reject your premise. Once upon a time we had a Prime Minister who actually believed that Canada should be owned by Canadians, people could get jobs that lasted a lifetime, and Canada was arguably the most respected nation on earth instead of the international pariah it has become today.
Values change through time, and it is not beyond reason to consider that future generations with more respect for the boundaries of Class "A" parks will view the gondola or, more likely, the spread of its environmental footprint as an abomination.
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Apr 27, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
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Stewart everyone is going to get nailed a hundred minimum to even fart near the thing
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Apr 27, 2012 - 07:49pm PT
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Do you f*#king dimwits have f*#king clue what a 20 million dollar Habrich road is going to look like from the summit of the Chief?
That is a shitload of blasting.
Think about the rock scar back there from that.
Totally compromises ises the aesthetic from the summit of the Chief
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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Apr 27, 2012 - 08:07pm PT
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I thought Anders already posted from the horses mouth? They dont want public traffic up there due to security and safety issues.
The thing was just opened what 2 maybe three years ago? Before that it was gated for what 6 or 7 years? Right at the Mamquam turn off.
They were handing out 200$ fines for going around it.
Before that well we just drove to Habrich.
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Apr 27, 2012 - 08:10pm PT
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The developers have already costed out what they have to charge for tickets and "locals" passes to pay for a 50 million dollar project.
The reason why they have not told you is because climbers and locals will never be able to afford them.
The only payments that will carry this project will be from the 200 dollar a plate Zagat rated restaurant up top.
How much daily traffic from service trucks on the Habrich road to support that.
You guys have been boondoggled.
Pay attention to Anders he is your best friend right now.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Apr 27, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
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Hamish - I had many reasons for leaving Squamish, but as you may recall, the locals had pretty well all the higher-paying jobs locked up pretty tight.
Fat City has had - I can't even guess how many - billion(?) dollars of free money poured into it at taxpayer expense to create this rich people's playground. As someone you know well know once told me regarding the "lifties" who were working for minimum wage (and a lift pass that cost the corporations not a goddamn cent) to help tourists enjoy "wilderness" - each person that they loaded was a potential liability suit, but lifties were forced to live a mountain winter in vans, unheated basements, or crammed like sardines into overpriced rental rooms while wealthier "nature lovers" spent gobs of cash to wallow in the undeniable beauty of the area.
Now there is housing for lifties, paid for entirely at taxpayer expense, so I guess another dirty little truth lurking behind the glamour has now vanished from the public consciousness.
Have you got even the faintest idea how many bears and other animals have been murdered up there to avoid scaring the tourists - an area that has been developed right in the middle of prime wildlife habitat? I guess the beauty of Fat City demands that wildlife gets exterminated whenever it gets too close to these nature lovers.
You see beauty up there, and the mountains are beautiful, but what I see instead is a well-landscaped monument to corporate greed, and a cynically manipulated travesty of a wilderness experience.
I remember suggesting when I was living over there that Squamish would be a perfect location for a wilderness education institution, where students could obtain formal certification as climbing (and other outdoor sport) guides. Has anybody explored that option to help jump-start the local economy? As best I can guess, such an initiative would not only provide far more employment opportunities than a goddamn gondola, but it might actually end up helping people to develop an appreciation for a natural environment that doesn't require machinery to appreciate.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 28, 2012 - 12:01am PT
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Have you got even the faintest idea how many bears and other animals have been murdered up there to avoid scaring the tourists
No, I don't. Can you tell me about it?
Serious question. You make it sound like the Whistler Blackcomb corporation hires mercenaries to go up the lifts and fan out killing every living thing they encounter. Is this what happens?
Again, serious question. You're making a fairly serious accusation here, and as someone who has a strong feeling about not killing our furry brothers I hope you're wrong, or exaggerating, but I would like to hear more.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 28, 2012 - 12:05am PT
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Yes, as I've grown accustomed to believe, Casper is right. Woz, you are reaching a little there with the anti-Whistler stuff. I realize it's Hollywood North up there and I'm definitely no fan, but give 'em a break.
Sure, Whistler has had it's share of government financial assistance, but do you know how well that same government does when real estate flourishes up there? The property purchase tax, brought in back in the 70's for a few years, but, oh well, why get rid of a tax once everyone is used to it. Every time a property is sold, the Gov't collects a cool sum from the transaction. Well, needless to say, the bigger the number, the much bigger the tax amount. For a million dollar home this figure could be around ten or fifteen thousand. Crunch those numbers a little, while we're on the topic of "free" money. Monthly real estate transactions in Hollywood North: HUGE. Monthly Whistler P.P.Tax remittance: not too shabby, for doing absolutely nothing. And that's not even touching on HST returns.
Free housing for lifties? You know the only free thing up there is the parking at creekside.
We understand you're over 60 and there's no way those boys are getting 30 bucks from you for a ride up top. And there's nothing wrong with that, at all. But you can't really speak for everyone over 60. I would think there might possibly be a few takers.
One last small detail. One of the reasons you left Squamish was due to the locals cornering the well paying jobs? Who exactly would you have working those jobs? Out-of-towners? I'm drawing a bit of a blank on that one. I wouldn't be too surprised if the people holding down the higher paying jobs in Courtenay live.......there.
You can keep calling me crazy.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 28, 2012 - 10:44am PT
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Not trying to back pedal too much here but I'm a little confused regarding the sale of the Gravel Pit. If The Land Conservancy was so anti-gondola, why on earth did they sell their land, in Feb,2012, to the Gondola Guys, who were already eight months into their project? The Proponents had done so much work and held open houses, gone before Squamish Council, etc. etc.; there is no way the TLC didn't know what they were doing. They even sold the parcel with a sticky-note attached to it, saying to go ahead and install a tram, as long as it terminates outside the Park.
To hear them come out and dissaprove of the gondola shortly after selling their land to a gondola company seems a little odd, to say the least.
Anders, could you shed some light on this? Because if they had worded their covenant differently, or decided NOT to sell their prime real estate to a gondola company, we could all get back to the other time-eraser site and hopefully see more North Wall pics.
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Apr 28, 2012 - 11:08am PT
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No real argument. Good.
What is now clear is that the park boundaries must be extended to protect Habrich, Sky Pilot, and Ben Lomond.
Be aware that IPP activities near Powell River resulted in road access removal to the public.
Once private enterprise develops an interest in roadworks MOF has a history of becoming compliant with private and not the publics best interest.
Major recreation loss for Squamish at risk here.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 28, 2012 - 12:37pm PT
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Hey Woz. Don't want you to think we're forgetting about you. The climbing guide certification thing has been going on for years . The super skilled club from Alberta come out here and certify guides all the time. I think there are a lot of local guides and a lot of rainy days in Squamish. Good business for Starbucks; as far as an economic engine for the town, it's about the size of a weedeater.
And since you brought it up, and while we're babbling about drawing lines in the sand, I trust you're aware that these "guides" make their living in your precious, class A, Protected Parkland. That's right, lots of people, receiving lots of money, and guess where they work? In the Park. Furthermore, judging by the busloads of people hiking the Backside trail lately, others are making their living guiding people up the trail. Likewise, over at the other side of the Park, we've got x number of tourbusses making money by bringing load after load of tourists into the base of the falls area.
You've got a bunch of ants on the front of the Chief making money, another colony of ants on the Backside trail making money, and an entire anthill over where the water hits the ground, also for profit. I notice with most of your writing, as with Bruce Macd's, you guys are so negative about these gondola guys trying to make money.
You're always asking us where we'd draw the line with respect to Park Boundary Adjustments; where do you draw the line with "people for profit in the Park" ?
Please don't use the "motorized" argument because they're not building a dirtbike track up the easement. It's an electric lift with the big motor at the bottom, and it'll probabaly use less power that all those diesel Greyhounds parked over at the falls.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 28, 2012 - 12:37pm PT
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The TLC statement on what happened is at http://blog.conservancy.bc.ca/2012/04/public-statement-regarding-squamish-gondola-proposal/
Perhaps there's more to the story, but even reasonable inferences would no doubt be slagged as "mental speculations", so I won't bother.
The developers, if the project goes ahead, would have to restore the Shannon Creek road, at least to the point where a fork leads to their upper terminal site. The power line for the upper station might also follow that line. However, it seems neither in the developer's interests, nor those of the various government bodies, that the road be open to public vehicle traffic. Whether the upper part of the road, past the turn off, would be restored, so that it would be decent walking or cycling, is another question.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 28, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
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Thanks for that, Anders. You are fast, especially on a Sat. morning.
I'm still bewildered as to why the TLC would take the trouble to word their covenant so carefully as to condone a tram which terminates outside the Park. Was it too easy to keep it simple and word the covenant along the lines of "No Arial Tramway".
What's your take on this? Sorry, I know we've been through this before; I'd just like to hear your opinion on the specific wording of the covenant. What with you being a lawyer and me being a bikerider.
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Apr 28, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
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Hamish if you think my argument is centered around companies making money read them again. It's entirely about access issues and examination of details you choose to gleefully ignore
Tell us what the pass prices are going to be to pay for a project that will need a twenty million dollar access road for starters.
They are going to put up a paywall around Habrich and Sky Pilot.
Bruce Kay you need to re-read Anders research questions and answers regarding the developers intention to gate the road for security purposes.
They already co-opted the land conservancy proving these c*#ks@ckers aren't amateurs. MOF do you really think they don't know how to circumvent those guys too?
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 28, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
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My apologies for hogging the site but I have a Newsflash.
Just yesterday I found my third person that felt strongly against the gondola. She is a busy mom of four and the furthest from ill informed you could imagine. After only a few minutes of talking, she admitted she thought the proposal was similar to that of 2004; she thought FOR SURE the tram was going up the Chief, still.
Classic. Ten minutes later she was warming up to the "revised" gondola proposal.
Bruce Macd,that road won't cost anywhere near 20 million to fix up. It might not even be one million.
O.K., maybe you weren't specifically complaining about these gondola guys making money but you don't exhibit very friendly mannerisms toward them.
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