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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Aug 25, 2016 - 10:29am PT
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Native Americans have multiple gods. When they would see something that they did not understand the would credit a god for it. When the missionaries came along the Indians willing accepted the white mans god as yet another god, they saw no need to bicker about which god was more powerful. This frustrated the missionaries and let to much retribution. Sadly we marginalized the Indians and their beliefs, but in reality had we learned from and adopted their wisdom the world would be a much better place.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 25, 2016 - 10:30am PT
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Maybe, John M, but you used my answer, " lack of imagination" which says nothing about whether God exists or not, and used it as a reason to write up a Strawman about atheists.
I really don't think I misread you.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 25, 2016 - 10:32am PT
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The universe is infinite. There is more going on than we can ever comprehend. There is no need to limit it by assigning it to the work of "God.
God is infinite therefor the material universe is the inferior energies of God. The spiritual world is the superior energies.
The chimpanzee DNA is over 98% same as ours
The shows brainwashing and the worst poor fund of knowledge.
DNA is NOT the living person.
The difference between a chimpanzee and human is their respective soul and consciousness.
Stoopid modern scientists think DNA is the living entity/person.
This why gross materialists become atheists, poor fund of knowlege of the living entity itself and the source of life itself.
Life comes from life, and life is eternal .......
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Coach37
Social climber
Philly
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Aug 25, 2016 - 10:34am PT
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I'm atheist, a scientist. I sure see things beyond what is all up in my grill, it would be hard to be do my job if I didn't believe that there are all kinds of chemicals and contaminants in the wastewater coming out of factories and WWTPs. A lot of times, it looks perfectly clean and is not.
I took a bunch of LSD in college and that cured me of any of this old man with a beard in the sky nonsense.
I asked our old pastor why if his god was an all knowing all powerful and loving god, he would allow things like child rape, or bombing that blew up little kids to happen. "He works in mysterious ways". Yeah, that's a fkin copout. Have fun with your make believe sky-man, pastor I'm not down with any god that lets that stuff happen.
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John M
climber
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Aug 25, 2016 - 10:44am PT
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but you used my answer, " lack of imagination" which says nothing about whether God exists or not,
Your response says nothing about whether god exists or not? I find that genuinely hard to believe. And I have nothing against you Jaybro. Though you seem to have something against me as you try to belittle me as though I have not the imagination to believe the humans are not powerful in some manner. I believe that humans are infinitely powerful because we are children of God. That makes us so much more then what atheists believe. Which is that we end when our bodies die. There isn't much imagination in that.
But you say your statement was not about whether God exists or not.
Okay.. but I don't accept that. You are kidding yourself if you believe that. And by the way, I am sorry if some who believe in God have hated on your because you do not believe in God. I believe that I have not ever hated on you in any fashion. So please do not lump me in with everyone.
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John M
climber
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Aug 25, 2016 - 10:46am PT
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Coach, you asked one man about his beliefs in God, and didn't like the mans answers, and so gave up on God? Huh.. what kind of scientist gives up after one failure?
Edit: and before you and Jaybro get upset with me. I happen to think both of you are quite good people. Though you haven't posted as much as Jaybro has.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Aug 25, 2016 - 10:51am PT
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So many people use surprisingly weak justifications to back their position.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Aug 25, 2016 - 10:52am PT
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Aug 25, 2016 - 10:57am PT
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I took a bunch of LSD in college and that cured me of any of this old man with a beard in the sky nonsense.
Love the scientific deduction. ^^^^
How does God avoid detection and the 6:00 news?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 25, 2016 - 11:19am PT
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I've believed for a long time many people believe in God because of fear of death. If death is the end of our existence it's very scary/depressing to many of us. If you believe in God and heaven (or other belief system with life after death) I imagine it can take a huge weight of your shoulders.
Mark Force:
Because people are afraid of the principle of cause and effect and don't like the idea of having to take responsibilty for themselves. That is probably a factor as well. Especially for the people who do bad things and take confession and get to clean their slate, or people who justify terrible/evil actions (like terrorists) by convincing themselves God wants it. I don't know if there is a God but I really believe if there is he/she is good and wants people to act in good ways, not evil ways.
But some people may have simply experienced things that I have not so I'm not one to discount what they have seen/felt that I haven't. I also am a big advocate of reason. I can't disprove God exists, so I'm an agnostic atheist, meaning I doubt there's a personal God, but I don't have proof there isn't so I'm not claiming I know one way or the other. But I know other people promote belief instead of reason and belief doesn't jive as well with uncertainty so they profess to know the "truth" and talk in absolutes and certainty. Maybe they see/know something I don't, but it comes across as condescending and/or insecurity when they speak like other people are stupid for not believing what they believe. It sure doesn't make me think they know what's really going on when they act like that.
I wonder if there's something in our brains that is just different so we have a different propensity to believe. Like some people are more likely to be alcoholics I wonder if some people are more likely to believe in God (not equating those in any way just showing an example). I've been to churches and have prayed and opened my heart up to God and didn't hear/feel anything other than the universe is good and amazing and I am incredibly lucky (along with all of us) to be here, to think, to have this beautiful, bountiful Earth, and if there is a God it's beyond my grasp what that truly is.
I had a change of heart and started thinking about God as whatever created the universe instead of just a personal God (A personal god is a deity who can be related to as a person instead of as an impersonal force, such as the Absolute, "the All", or the "Ground of Being"). It could be a superior being (which would be nice but I don't see any evidence of that) or it could just be the laws of physics and all the energy/matter that enables all of this. Now I am no longer offended when I hear things like One Nation Under God or In God We Trust, because I take it as one nation under the universe, or yes I trust the nature and reason of God more than men who can be corrupt. I'm not saying whether or not I think those terms should be part of American governmental function, I'm just saying they mean something different to me now and I don't find them as exclusionary as I previously did.
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Coach37
Social climber
Philly
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Aug 25, 2016 - 12:04pm PT
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"Coach, you asked one man about his beliefs in God, and didn't like the mans answers, and so gave up on God?"
Come on now John, that wasn't my point. My point was, any "god" that allows the things I described, is nothing I want anything to do with. It wouldn't have mattered what the old pastor said, I just asked him because I was trying to make a point to him. That his "god" wasn't any of the things he preached from the pulpit, unless you can reconcile an all knowing, all loving god, with child rape, kids getting cancer, kids getting blown apart or orphaned due to some other religious nuts setting off bombs.
then they excuse all the mental gymnastics required to believe this crazy stuff by saying nonsense like "faith" or "works in mysterious ways". It's 3rd grade imaginary friend stuff.
Religion is all a power play to control people. Always has been, always will be. and you guys knocking the LSD, what do you think all those religious epiphanies of prophets came from back in the ancient desert? Hallucination states, that's what. Whether peyote, or mushrooms, or ergot fungus, or just mediating and fasting alone for long amounts of time. They were trippin out man.
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John M
climber
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Aug 25, 2016 - 01:06pm PT
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t. My point was, any "god" that allows the things I described, i
I agree with you that that particular definition of God is not a very good one.
What if there was a different one? Could you wrap your mind around a different picture?
In this world there are basically two different ways that a child ends up raped. It is either their personal karma, brought on from previous lifetimes, or it is world karma. One decides to take on world karma before their lifetime. So in either case, a choice was made that led to that rape. God does not allow anything to happen to us that was not a part of our original decision. That is the part most people have trouble with. We were not originally created in this mess. We, each and every one of us, chose at some point to help create this mess. Either through arrogance, or anger, or pride. And it does not become this way through one choice, but through lifetimes of choices. I repeat. It does not become the mess that we currently have, such as rape of anyone, through one choice, but through lifetimes of choices. This planet has experienced many dark ages and many golden ages. We are currently coming out of a dark age. but we have a ways to go to reach a golden age.
If you can understand this, then you can see how it is that on the one hand, God could stop all rape, but then that would mean that we did not have free will and would in essence end up as robots. The consequence of free will is that poor choices can be made. If one does not turn away from the guiding hand of God, then those poor choices can be forgiven and no harm will happen. But if one, over a long period of time, choses to turn from God, then God allows us to experience the consequences of those choices. That is the basis of free will. There is no free will without consequences.
Of course, one has to believe in reincarnation to find this understanding and many do not. Plus one has to belief that we have free will. and some here do not.
That is one of the attractions of climbing. It has consequences. If you were always saved from your poor choices, then the challenge would be gone. It would be like a permanent top rope. I'm sure that most of you would grow bored with a permanent top rope.
There is so much more then saying.. "God allowed it". I hope that you can see past that.
I understand that these are difficult concepts to accept. Especially if one is steeped in disdain for any belief in God. I simply offer this to you as an answer beyond.. "God is mysterious". And isn't that the true nature of a scientist. To seek answers. And then test them to see if they are true?
We are of course testing every day our disbelief or belief in God. We do this every day in our lives with our choices.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Aug 25, 2016 - 01:18pm PT
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Karma eh?
I didn't read anything about that in the Bible, in fact according to it, you only get one chance.
So John, are you saying you are not a Christian?
Because reincarnation is Not a Christina principle.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 25, 2016 - 01:22pm PT
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In this world there are basically two different ways that a child ends up raped. It is either their personal karma, brought on from previous lifetimes, or it is world karma.
Sorry but I see that as an example of blaming the victim. I see "previous lifetime" or "world karma" as very far fetched compared to the simple explanation that the perpetrator was simply acting very evil. And the victim was simply a victim and usually did nothing to contribute.
Maybe God gave us freewill and he wants to allow things to run their course, or maybe the devil / evil is controlling the perpetrator. But to assign blame to the victim is a cop out and counterproductive in my eyes.
If people acting evil like Dictators live a rich and spoiled life does that mean they had good karma from a previous life? I don't buy that, they wouldn't be good, then come back as evil.
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John M
climber
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Aug 25, 2016 - 01:40pm PT
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Craig, Jesus taught karma. Its simplest form is "you reap what you sow". Though the bible contains few detailed teachings on Karma. At the time of Jesus there were many teachings/books that taught karma.
Reincarnation was also an accepted part of Christianity before the 6th century. All teachings in Christianity on reincarnation were removed during the 6th century at the Fifth general council of the Church. The emperor at the time, Emperor Justinian, forced the council to remove them. At one point he even jailed the Pope at that time, Pope Vigilius,, to try and get him to agree.
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John M
climber
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Aug 25, 2016 - 01:43pm PT
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DMT, I am fairly certain that I have never disdained your disbelief. Edit:, If I have, then I apologize. I was speaking more generally. On the Taco, any belief in God faces considerable disdain. Many here call any teaching about God "fairy tales".
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Aug 25, 2016 - 01:50pm PT
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Karma eh?
I didn't read anything about that in the Bible, in fact according to it, you only get one chance.
I take It you haven't actually read the bible.
Galatians 6:7 - Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Job 4:8 - Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.
2 Corinthians 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.
Galatians 6:8-9 - For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Proverbs 26:27 - Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein: and he that rolleth a stone, it will return upon him.
Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Matthew 7:12 - Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
[/QUOTE]
Pretty much everything in the Old Testament from the fall of Adam and Eve, to the murder of the first borns, to the Babylonian captivity is about Karmic consequences.
And in the New Testament, repentance pretty much resets the table. Read PAUL.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Aug 25, 2016 - 01:57pm PT
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WRONG
Sow and you will reap means you get to go to heaven
and then that's it, no more human lives
You get one chance to submit your life to Jebus, and be a servant for God
You sow good seeds, go to heaven
sow bad, go directly to HELL!
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Aug 25, 2016 - 02:11pm PT
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Stoopid modern scientists think DNA is the living entity/person.
No, they don't.
Curt
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Aug 25, 2016 - 02:18pm PT
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I see atheism as a lack of imagination as they can only experience what is put smack dab in front of their face...
There is perhaps some truth to this, but you need to realize that your statement can be reworded as:
"Atheism is a lack of belief in the imaginary and belief in the observable."
The meaning is the same, but the connotation is quite different.
Curt
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