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csdude
Trad climber
colo springs CO
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May 13, 2008 - 10:47am PT
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Perhaps I was a little over the top, Looking
at the huge smile on that kids face does indeed
soften me up a bit.
BTW-
I have always liked Bob !
Anyone NOT always liked Bob ??
:)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2008 - 11:55am PT
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Glad after 500 posts that people have seriously addressed my question rather than try to support their positions,..
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 13, 2008 - 12:04pm PT
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I have done plenty to highlight that notion Ron.
You are correct; the majority of what we see on this thread is a lot of direct opposition.
So whatever might be happening out on the crags,
Side-by-side ethics certainly aren't enjoying a lot of accommodation here on the Internet.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 13, 2008 - 12:09pm PT
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I posted way back that they (sport and trad climbs) have and can co-exist...I also said that the climbers couldn't.
and then the personal attacks started.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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May 13, 2008 - 12:15pm PT
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Bob,I only have one route in the North Conway area,Groovedogs,10d.I put the bolt in on lead,from a hook.I have two other 10d's in Penna at Stover,which I believe I have read you refer to as a chosspile.I am OK with that.Also put up the popular 10a there,Tales from the Crypt.In addition about another 15 routes,trad,ground up.Most are 65 feet or less,sorry,it's all we had.I've placed four bolts,all on lead,all on hooks.Never rap inspected any routes prior to attempts.Cleared plenty of choss,up to briefcase size,holding same in lap while belayer took cover.Most of these routes are short and intense,no standing around placing gear.On quite a few,we risked decking to abide our standards.Some we added fixed gear to later.
We had bolts,inclination,time and devotion.We operated on a belief that if we could create a route with one bolt,a good route,on lead,that was OK.I had the skills and tools to put up many more,but did not believe that the time had come for anyone to use up the medium that way.I had two 5.11's wired on toprope but did not feel that,since I had toproped them,bolting them was called for.
I thought I read somewhere that you had authored something like 1500 routes in the Boulder area.You stated above 400-500 are trad.That's about the ratio I would have guessed.I can't imagine I'm the only one that thinks what I posted above,that you think that your opinion matters more.
My opinion Bob,is that perhaps you might have left some things undone for those who come later.That said there is a juxtaposition(sp?)that occurs when someone,or group of people,love a particular climbing area and develop it rapidly.Sometimes another such group does not come along for decades.Perhaps that is you in Boulder.
Odd though,and dissapointing the superior attitude you display toward me.I like to think of myself as a climber with valid viewpoints,have new routed some,climb ice,have climbed in Yosemite to 5.11,Josh too,Red Rocks,Adirondacks,Gunks,Acadia,plenty of routes up to 5.11 at Cannon.Have authored a guidebook.Makes me wonder,where you are dissing Mr.Stannard and I,what the criteria are,though I am certainly not in his league.
I took a trip to climb in Great Britain,and was inspired by their approach.Upon return I led another route there at the Edge,what we called Great Wall.We did not have any small cams back then,so the first real gear was pretty well up,maybe forty feet.I just read on rc.that someone has bolted the whole wall.Two other tens that I did there have had bolts added,and they were not even scary.
I'm aware 5.11 is pretty paltry nowadays,it was fun back then though,in EB's and a swami.Nowadays I climb 10d and occasionally get lucky on 11 a or b.
I'll bow out of this discussion now,carry on.
Tom Stryker
P.S. Nick,I am not opposed,as you know,to the use of bolts.I am opposed to bolted anchors that facilitate toproping,rap bolting,grid bolting.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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May 13, 2008 - 12:20pm PT
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Don't forget that Jstan also was a leader in
protecting Yosemite back in the '70's when they wanted
to paint it for that damn telebision show, whatever the
f#$k it was. . .
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 13, 2008 - 12:20pm PT
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Many of my earliest climbing partners now do quite a bit of sport climbing.
We all started out as dyed in the wool trad climbers, so times and people's inclinations definitely change.
Sport climbing is not going anywhere.
There are those of us, Healyje, Mimi, for instance, who staunchly oppose it.
Wes sees that as ludicrous in light of broad spread acceptance.
We definitely see strong opinions and firm stances here; some people hold hard and fast positions and if that is really what they feel, then that is appropriate for them.
Bob takes lots of hits and generally defends himself as a sport climber, but has as much said that he entertains both modes.
Bob:
It seems that you might have interpreted some of my comments and direct questions as an affront to your bolting habits. That is not my intent. I am more interested in opening up perspectives and generating understanding.
It would seem that within your own activities, you in fact embrace both styles side-by-side. So a question for you (not looking for a yes or no answer):
Currently, how much ground up bolting are you doing and what sort of circumstances inform your decision on which mode to choose?
-Roy
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 13, 2008 - 12:38pm PT
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Tomcat wrote: I thought I read somewhere that you had authored something like 1500 routes in the Boulder area.You stated above 400-500 are trad.That's about the ratio I would have guessed.I can't imagine I'm the only one that thinks what I posted above,that you think that your opinion matters more.
My opinion Bob,is that perhaps you might have left some things undone for those who come later.That said there is a juxtaposition(sp?)that occurs when someone,or group of people,love a particular climbing area and develop it rapidly.Sometimes another such group does not come along for decades.Perhaps that is you in Boulder.
Wrong on a number of points. I have done 1500 FA's from New York to Texas and in between...not just Boulder, my opinions are based on my real world experiences about climbing in the last 35 years....period! I have never stopped you or anyone else from doing new routes. Just get off your ass and stop blaming others for what you neither want to do or can't do. Mr. Stannard started the dissing on me...I have only responded to his mis-information on me for which in a e-mail wanted to blame me for the bolt ban in the Gunks when I wasn't in the area for at least 5-7 years.
I can play hard ball or take the gloves off once the personal attacks start. You and a fews others want it like the old days...that is gone and it almost shameful to me see the old crew attack the new for changing the way climbing has gone. No one is stopping you from climbing in any style you prefer...one of my examples would be Todd Gordon who I have the upmost respect for...married, children and working on almost a thousand new routes and I think all hand drilled and on the lead.
Leading by example and not wanking on the internet. Also not bitter or cynical...just out there doing it.
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csdude
Trad climber
colo springs CO
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May 13, 2008 - 12:40pm PT
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Ok lets say you're standing in front of
a cliff here of the most beautiful rock
you can imagine.
Which one gives you a happy face :)
A
B
or C ??
Edit:
Guess I'm somewhere between A - B
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 13, 2008 - 01:24pm PT
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Roy wrote:Currently, how much ground up bolting are you doing and what sort of circumstances inform your decision on which mode to choose?
Do you really think my answer will change anything??
I bolted on lead up to 5.12 and maybe harder...that was a personal decision. I bolted on lead routes in Boulder Canyon and the South Platte in the last years and few in the Splatte got chopped buy a chicken sh#t AC.
The pure hate spew by the trad-crowd is really disturbing to me...one fellow when so far as to cut hangers on sport routes in Boulder Canyon and left them in place so someone would clip them, fall and maybe died...they were replaced before that happened.
I am embarrassed by this behavior and really much rather be associated with sport-climbers than the cynical-hateful trad group.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 13, 2008 - 02:09pm PT
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Do I think open dialogue will change anything Bob?
It has a better chance of doing so than straight out argumentation.
Perhaps we have people reading our comments who might find the nuanced responses elicited through inquiry informative to their appreciation of the situation. It isn't all about, or limited to, open battle with our adversaries who step forward and post.
How these styles exist side by side, and how they might contiue to, this can be better understood by those not in the know, if we as experts are perhaps willing to entertain some detail. You and I, through benefit of our direct experience, may have some insight to share here.
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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May 13, 2008 - 02:10pm PT
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Ahhhhhh, I do so love rainy days. I've now had the time to catch up on most of the posts on this thread and I'll try and organize my own opinions on the subject. If I can't go outside and climb I may as well jump into the pool and see if I can swim among the starfish and the sharks.............
One of the interesting things about being an older active climber in Boulder is that there are so many different styles of climbers here. Sport, trad, boulderers, big wall, alpine, ice, alpine rock, rock&ice alpine, high altitude etc AND the indoor recreationists who climb indoors but have not had any outdoor climbing experience. This last group probably impacts the sport more adversly than any other group because the reason they got into rock climbing may be so different from the rest who started outdoors or so it seems to me.
In the Boulder area there are only rules for establishing first ascents in Eldorado State Park and in the Flatirons. In the other outlaying areas such as Boulder Canyon or Table Mountain it's really an "anything goes" atmosphere. No rules no restrictions. I think primarily Boulder Canyon is so free of rules because it's too difficult of an area to manage (many different land agencies) and also because of its accessability. There are just too many climbers going in there and too many little crags. It was easier to control climbing styles when there was a smaller circle of climbers, when we all knew each other and we all pretty much shared the same reasons for climbing.
Back in the day (I'm going back now about 40 years) Most people came into the sport of rock climbing via some previous outdoor activity. Backpacking, camping, scrambling etc. Most of us saw climbing as another way to experience the great outdoors and appreciated climbing as another way to experience being outide. It wasn't just about the movement on rock but also about other less tangible values. I think that has dfinately changed. What I'm seeing now is that many of the people who climb the routes in Boulder Canyon or in some of the other "unrestricted" areas began their climbing careers indoors and hence do not necessary climb for the same aesthetic reasons .........
They seem to be concerned more with difficulty and the grade at which they "climb". Sunlight, fresh air etc are secondary to the climbing. Nothing wrong with that but it's different and sometimes clash with my and other people's reasons for being out there on the crags.
There are more climbers than ever before and we don't all share the same values so conflict of how our resources (the rock) should be used arises. In areas where there are rules or standards governing the establishment of FAs (Eldorado State Park, Boulder Open Space and Mountain Parks), we don't seem to have such severe disagreements within the climbing community. Maybe that's because another govening body is in charge of making those decisions for us. It does seem that as climbers trying to represent ourselves we can be our own worst enemies.
Having so many different styles of climbing in an area that has limited resources but where the numbers of climbers is growing more each year does create an interesting situation. How can we coexist and not use up the rock too soon. How do we leave some unclimbed rock for future generations but still accommodate the numbers of climbers?
In Boulder Canyon it does seem that by and large sport climbs and trad routes do co-exist well together. There for sure have been turf wars in the past but things seem pretty calm and everyone (I think) is getting along fine at the moment.
At Sleeping Beauty Rock there are trad routes next to sport routes and both have remained unchanged since they were established over five years ago. There are trad routes and sport routes next to each other on Blob Rock. There are more examples.........Maybe the best example of co-existence is the establishment of a new crag last year. Tonneque Tower was established with 35 routes last year. Probably about 20% of those routes were intentionally left as trad routes to appease the climbing community.
For me it was the first time watching someone develop an entire cliff in a way that hopefully would satisfy everyone. It didn't work of course but the main develper, Ron came mightly close. More rock could have been left untravelled or unbolted (conceively all of it)of course, but that would have been too elitist.
At this point in time it doesn't work trying to be elite. There are too many ordinary people on the rock and the sport is mainstream. More than ever before the elite of this sport are in the minority and there are too many other people who all climb for different reasons, have different asthetic values and have nothing in common with the party climbing the rock next to them. Their reasons for climbing have nothing in common with me or you and because this sport was based on anarchy they feel they can do what they want.
As I see it sport climbing is a tool that can be used and is useful in raising the standards of traditional climbing. I feel that the true benefits of of what climbing has to offer can best be experienced at the sharp end of a traditionally equipted route but the skills that allow for the development of harder trad routes have been honed through sport climbing. Lynn Hill has always maintained that were it not for her background in competitive sport climbing she would not have been able to free climb the Nose on El Cap. The Huber brothers use sport climbing in reaching higher standards and faster times in ascending big walls free. Sharma has done the same.
Most climbers though don't have such lofty goals. They just wanna have fun and sport climbing gives them that. That's the problem. Rock climbing was never supposed to be "just fun'. It was more than that.............
The question as I see the situation is not can sport climbing co-exist alongside traditional routes because it can and does but rather can we as a climbing community, with many different attitudes, styles, values come together and agree on how best to use our limited resources.
Many divergent style of routes can co-exist but I can't say the same about climbers who have diferent styles and climb for reasons which conlict with others. Maybe we'll come together as a community and work towards a common goal with mutual respect for each other diferences.
Meanwhile I'm going to stand on the sidelines and see what happens to the routes on the south side of Half Dome and wait and see what happens next.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 13, 2008 - 02:51pm PT
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Roy wrote: Do I think open dialogue will change anything Bob?
It has a better chance of doing so than straight out argumentation.
Which is most if not all of these debates turn out to be and it is usually started by one side when they start the insults and name calling.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 13, 2008 - 03:28pm PT
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Can you and I proceed differently Bob?
I'm intersested in this thing.
I don't so much have a dog in this fight...sure I have an opinion that a risk averse, litigious society can suffer from a complete separation from certain types of physically oriented risk management skills. But I'm not on a crusade over it.
Maybe you don't like having to answer to anybody.
But how about sharing.
I'm interested to hear what sort of personal criteria you use to guide your choice when bolting a new route; something on the order of a thoughtfull reflection. When do you go ground up? When top down? How do you decide?
I'm not preparing to critique your descriptions with some sort of retort as to whether some top down route you did "should" have been lead and installed from the bottom.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2008 - 04:00pm PT
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Thank you for addressing the meat of the question Bldrjac.
I tend to agree.
Side by side is doable if people are willing to make it doable.
Yes, it involves compromise.
Yes, not everyone will be happy.
and,..
Yes, there will be endless debate about what should or could have been done on various lines ad nauseum.
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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May 13, 2008 - 05:48pm PT
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"The question as I see the situation is not can sport climbing co-exist alongside traditional routes because it can and does but rather can we as a climbing community, with many different attitudes, styles, values come together and agree on how best to use our limited resources."
Completely agree. The bigger question to ponder is not always how, but where and when is it appropriate to put up any route that involves bolts? Then, when to say when and call it quits - leaving some virgin rock for the next guy or future generations? Where is it appropriate to maintain a little more adventure and leave an area as pristine as possible?
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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May 13, 2008 - 06:51pm PT
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Nate,
Those are real questions for sure and I don't know as I have the answers to them.
Speaking for myself I find that it's almost inappropriate for me to place bolts anymore because I'm not climbing s hard as I used to. My concerns about being safe almost drive my rock climbing more now than my need for adventure and boldness. So, if I put up a new route that needs a bolt I will only do so if it does not detract from the climbs around it. Going up to a virgin cliff and rap-bolting as a first route to me seems wrong. I still like some adventure and uncertainty in my climbing no matter what the grade but I'm not willing to just bolt protect something if I think I can get better and lead without.
I find it interesting that the areas immediate to certain routes which are established in a bold, straight-up, trad style rarely get bolted and are left blank. Routes I have in mind are Bachar-Yerian in Tuolumne, Perilous Journey in the Boulder area, Super Pin and Hairy Pin in the Needles of South Dakota. All these routes were visionary in conception and bold in execution. It's as if the qualities it took to establish these routes are recognized by the majority of climbers and are held as an example of what people are capable of if they should choose to go that route. I don't think it has taken too much discussion to keep these areas as is (but I could be wrong).
I think that bolted routes haven't been established next to these classics because the experience the leader of any of these routes would have would be diminished by the close proximinty to bolts. To my knowledge no one person or committee has said "don't bolt next to these routes" but people haven't anyway. Actually, someone did bolt very close to Perilous Journey but the bolts were pulled and nothing else was said or done.
Sometimes I think that certain cliffs just have to be announced as being "off limits" to rappel-placed bolted climbs and then other cliffs have to be provided as a canvas for grid bolting. In Eldorado Canyon it is has been decided by a committee of local climbers that the establishment of sport climbs in the canyon would detract from the history and general vibe of that climbing area. That in this area the values that trad climbing has to offer be protected. As a consequence I think Boulder Canyon has become the sacrificial calf for sport climbing. But, also as a consequence, the style of "head-pointing" has evolved in Eldorado Canyon and we're seeing some interesting developments in that arena.
There has to be a balance in our sport otherwise random dark forces take over and chip holds, glue on rocks and otherwise desicrate the rock we all use. If there is one cliff that is totally trad I almost think that there has to be one closeby that offers sport climbing. Climbers almost demand the right to express themselves in there own individual way in how they put up routes and to deny that is to create problems for everyone. The challenge is we all aren't of the same mindset anymore ut we use the same resource.
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Dogtown Climber
Trad climber
The Idyllwild City dump
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May 13, 2008 - 08:49pm PT
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Lots of cake for Bob!! I must say, I have led some really good rap bolted routes. Its the bolt a meter routes that I don't get. Where is the sport in that type of thing. You all have seen it. Why?
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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May 13, 2008 - 09:14pm PT
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Bob does do a damn good job of putting up routes. There is alot of variety, some spice and good quality rock in all of his routes.
AND he puts up trad as well as sport routes so he's not such a bad guy after all...................
Now if I could only get him onto the ice and mixed to see the stuff he's REALLY made of! LOL!!
JACK
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