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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Apr 22, 2019 - 07:40am PT
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Which will mean that ST to an even greater extent is left with the politics, just like we continue now. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but have to be extremely careful about posting anything connected to climbing and climbing history because of the lawyer scare...
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Apr 22, 2019 - 07:45am PT
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RJ,
Can't you just pad your insurance policy in the unlikely event you get sued for someone like Marlow's content?
Arne
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 22, 2019 - 07:54am PT
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Can't you just pad your insurance policy in the unlikely event you get sued for someone like Marlow's content?
LOL
That's a lawyer magnet fix. They will then come running (money is there).
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 22, 2019 - 08:01am PT
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We just don't want to take that kind of risk. Good luck with that!
I have a copyright infringement story for you!
My sister in law - she’s into her crafts - silly stuff like pot holders with ducks - quilts - stuff not so different than justthemaid or happigrl might create.
She goes to an arts and craft show - for fun - in the middle of fricken Iowa - a magazine takes a photo of her stuff and cites her name - among many others.
So a few months later - she gets a letter in the mail - probably not so different than the one you just got - claiming her designs were ripped off and that she’s going to get sued for licensing fees!!
Man the f’k up boys, this is the world we live in, and this is what insurance is for.
Things suck now, I’ve been there, but I think you’ll come out the other side with a different attitude - possibly one where you’ll want to hit back when you can!
As long as Supertopo is visible to the public and as long as people can look at guys like CM and think he’s totally rich and living the easy dream - you’ll be a target for this sh!t!
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A Essex
climber
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Apr 22, 2019 - 10:03am PT
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How long until Mountain Project, owned by REI gets sued?!?!?!?!
only time will tell
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 22, 2019 - 10:16am PT
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How long until Mountain Project, owned by REI gets sued?!?!?!?! How would you know it hasn't already happened - happens often - and you don't hear about it?
Looks like REI's legal department is looking for an extra hand!
https://rei.jobs/careers/JobDetail/Legal-Department-Administrator/13752
"mid-size (25+ attorney)"
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 22, 2019 - 10:30am PT
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That's a lawyer magnet fix. They will then come running (money is there).
It's actually the opposite. A competent attorney knows that insurance companies have deep pockets, not just to pay damages but to FIGHT paying damages with some of the best attorneys money can buy. Getting money OUT of an insurance company is like blood from a turnip.
And an incompetent attorney is going to get his/her butt handed to him/her (at plaintiff's expense) as a learning experience.
So, the mere HAVING of a good IP insurance policy actually RAISES the bar against frivolous suits. And ST HAS been in compliance with safe harbor provisions (as we keep getting reminded), so a competent attorney doing even a shred of due diligence will recognize that a take-down demand letter regarding an individual violation is the furthest the matter is ever gonna go. Damages are basically out of the question.
I again refer you to YouTube and other such content sites. If "deep pockets make the lawyers come running" were true, then please explain how they lasted this long without being sued out of existence.
It's just not the way this game works. ST is MUCH safer then the management apparently feels, and they would be effectively untouchable with a good IP policy.
But, again, NONE of these points are relevant.
What we keep hearing is that the forums lose money, so there is NO bang-for-buck there. So, why would anybody spend MORE money to "protect themselves" from problems that are just introduced BY the very users who are using the service for free and thereby REDUCING the bang-for-buck ratio on all fronts?
I'm not happy with how things are going, and I don't feel that the management has been as communicative as they might have been. But we are NOT entitled to this forum OR to their communication! And it is clear that ST management are 100% backing away from the idea that this forum is some necessary public service to the climbing community. That is their right. They don't OWE us anything, nor do they OWE the climbing community anything.
So, all talk about how they COULD manage to do something to serve us that they have explicitly stated they are not motivated to do, well, it's all moot.
THIS is the new normal, and I don't expect it to change based on ANY moaning or suggestions to the contrary. What they COULD do and what they have any motivation to do are two wildly different things.
So, it's time for each of us to decide as individuals how we intend to cope with the new normal.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Apr 22, 2019 - 11:26am PT
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Madbolter1!! Wow, Oh Wow, Dude!
Speaking of a new normal, I find your post worth repeating. Thank you!
I'm not happy with how things are going, and I don't feel that the management has been as communicative as they might have been. But we are NOT entitled to this forum OR to their communication! And it is clear that ST management are 100% backing away from the idea that this forum is some necessary public service to the climbing community. That is their right. They don't OWE us anything, nor do they OWE the climbing community anything.
So, all talk about how they COULD manage to do something to serve us that they have explicitly stated they are not motivated to do, well, it's all moot.
THIS is the new normal, and I don't expect it to change based on ANY moaning or suggestions to the contrary. What they COULD do and what they have any motivation to do are two wildly different things.
So, it's time for each of us to decide as individuals how we intend to cope with the new normal.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 22, 2019 - 11:27am PT
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^^^ Who'da thunk it?
Thanks.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 22, 2019 - 11:45am PT
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Well I was sued once. It is no fun. Served with papers at home right before midnight.
I hired an attorney but decided to go it alone at the settlement conference.
The biggest player was the Data General Corporation. Other players were two computer maintenance/repair companies, a software company and me the consultant.
The plaintiff sued DG, the software company and one maintenance company.
I and the other maintenance company were the real heroes. We recovered and for the most part fixed the broken system.
The arbitrator, a retired judge, found that the heroes had no liability. We were absolved and sent on our separate ways.
The attorney who dragged us into the countersuit apologized to me afterwards, saying he knew we did nothing wrong, but that "business as usual" in the legal world.
Cost me a bit of money, but the worst was the wear and tear on my psyche.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Apr 22, 2019 - 11:55am PT
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I tried to figure out how to join bulgingwideopenfetish, Not thinking of the ramifications; I was going to sign up as RoXjOx but it was not Garrblefriendlybase
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Apr 22, 2019 - 01:10pm PT
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Glad to see most people still here. Since there seems to be a lot of interest in lawyers lately, here's a good story. I actually know the main character in it, bill scherer, and am fighting with him in two cases.
Scherer got some naked pictures of a judge and threatened to publish them before the judges election. She relented, gave up on the custody of her son, and was re elected. Four years later, just before statute of limitations would run, she threatens to sue him. Before filing suit, her lawyer emails scherer and demands ten million dollars. Otherwise he will file it. Before she files anything, Scherer sues her lawyers for extortion. I think Scherer will get his head handed to him, but still, the moral of the story is: never threaten to sue someone and definitely do not demand money until you are ready to file the complaint. If you don't have a real case, it could be criminal extortion.
Judge and lawyer trade accusations of blackmail
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 22, 2019 - 02:40pm PT
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^^^ You do NOT pull the gun until you are COMMITTED to firing it. Brandishing is a crime, and if the "pull" was legally justified, so was the "bang."
Only idiots with bad (or no) counsel threaten to sue a site like SuperTopo.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 22, 2019 - 03:01pm PT
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Only idiots with bad (or no) counsel threaten to sue That's not true at all.
The game is to threaten and confuse - then agree to walk away with "cost of litigation".
ie, if the litigation looks like it would cost an insurance company $10k to fight and defend, even if winning is near 100%, the insurance might offer $10k to the plaintiff to go away - and they'll take it.
~90% of cases are settled this way. All day every day all over the place. The "duty to defend" is on the insurance company - money in the bank for the plaintiff, they just need to pull something out of their butt to create a risk of liability - and cha-ching!
It's all about the easy money for these people. They're fuking parasites.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 22, 2019 - 03:26pm PT
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You didn't finish my quote, leaving out the KEY phrase, "sites like SuperTopo."
By your own example, there is no money to go for here, and apparently no insurance company.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 22, 2019 - 03:35pm PT
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no insurance company. If they're suing CM personally - or threatening to - as has been alluded to in these threads - and he owns property - as I think also has come out here in the past - then he has insurance - and from my rough reading of CA laws - it would apply here - Google "duty to defend CA". It would definitely apply in CO.
The basic gist is if a house is seized in a judgement, the mortgage probably won’t get paid, just as if there were a flood or a fire
The plaintiffs are 1000% aware of this.
It's really no effort beyond sending a threatening demand letter to take the additional step of sending a similar one to a court to open a case and thus officially begin a lawsuit - to turn up the heat - and the BS.
Again - to the moon and back - to actually get money - especially out of an uninsured individual.
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Chris McNamara
SuperTopo staff member
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2019 - 03:47pm PT
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Hi Forum,
I'd like to once again thank those of you who have helped us by taking the time to delete any copyright infringing photos you have uploaded.
It is very important to us that there are no images on our servers that infringe on the copyrights of others. I appreciate your help!
Have You Checked Your Photo Uploads?
I'd like to ask those of you who have not yet carefully reviewed your photos to please do so in the next few days.
What Kinds of Photos Infringe on Copyrights?
Some people are not sure what kinds of photos infringe on other people's copyrights, so I wanted to provide a list of the most common kinds of infringing photos we've seen. This is not an exhaustive list, but is intended to help you know what kinds of photos are often copyright infringing:
 Memes - these are typically based on copyrighted photos and need to be removed. If you don't own or have the rights to the photo a meme is based on, please remove it.
Celebrities - photos of celebrities, actors, politicians, athletes, and other famous people are typically copyrighted photos and need to be removed
Pro Photographer Photos - photos taken by professional photographers are almost invariably copyrighted and need to be removed
Photoshop and Derivatives of Copyrighted Images - modifying a copyrighted photo in Photoshop, or taking a photo of a photo doesn't give you the right to use it
Scans of Copyrighted Magazines, Books, or Articles - we can't have any scans of climbing articles, guidebook pages, or any other scans of copyrighted printed material on our server. I know this kind of content has been interesting and may have real historical or educational value, but it is nonetheless copyright infringing and needs to be removed
Cartoons - cartoons are fun, but also copyrighted materials, and need to be removed.
TV and Movie Images - images from TV shows and movies are copyrighted content and need to be removed
Inappropriate Images - There is no justification for posting inappropriate images on SuperTopo, which is intended to be a friendly environment for climbers of all ages. If you have uploaded any inappropriate images, please remove them. If you see any on the site, please help us by using the feedback link at the footer of every page to let us know about inappropriate content so we can remove it
As a reminder, you are solely responsible for your photo uploads. We do not condone, nor will we accept financial liability, for any member who uploads images or content to SuperTopo that infringes on the copyrights of others.
We ask you to review any photos you have uploaded to SuperTopo, and immediately delete any photos you may have uploaded if you are not 100% sure you own the rights to the image.
Should we discover copyright infringing photos on your account, all your photos will be deleted and wiped from the server as a protective measure, and your account may be de-activated.
Thank you for your help with this very important effort.
Sincerely,
Chris McNamara
Founder
SuperTopo
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Apr 22, 2019 - 03:58pm PT
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Chris, it sounds like all this may have been prompted by some external threat. If so, I’m really sorry to hear it. Thanks for hosting the Forum within the domain of your privately held company. I’ve made so many good friends here. And gotten a lot of laughs. What a gift.
Take care, Phyl
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Apr 22, 2019 - 05:02pm PT
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Is SuperTopo not availing itself of the DMCA safe harbor protection provisions? Or was there some changes to the law or to Supertopo itself that I am not aware of that makes SuperTopo vulnerable?
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SuperTopo on the Web
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