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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 26, 2012 - 04:11pm PT
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After flying around on google earth for twenty minutes, I'm amping up my support for the project. There's an entire playground up there, waiting for your enjoyment.
I do believe it's very important the gondola cabins are ordered stock with bike carrying capabilities. I think the upper terminal could eventually serve as a terrific starting point for a number of multi-hour rides.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 26, 2012 - 04:12pm PT
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Whoo hoo! Post #700. Do I get a life-time free pass on the Gondola?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 26, 2012 - 06:18pm PT
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After flying around on google earth for twenty minutes, I'm amping up my support for the project. There's an entire playground up there, waiting for your enjoyment.
I do believe it's very important the gondola cabins are ordered stock with bike carrying capabilities. I think the upper terminal could eventually serve as a terrific starting point for a number of multi-hour rides.
I've enjoyed the area many times, on foot. As have many others.
Anyway, I didn't know that google earth built trails. Most trail building up there will likely be done by volunteers.
Will most mountain bikers simply drive up the road as far as they're allowed, then cycle in from there? $30 is a fair amount, in comparison with perhaps a half hour riding. Even if the road is only open for the first few km, the rest would be improved and easily ridden, to get to trails above. If those trails connect to the upper station of the gondola, then maybe riders will visit it, but isn't their priority the riding? Sure, some may ride up, but overall bikers don't seem a likely major profit centre for the developers. It's easier to corral tourists at the bottom, then separate them from their money in all ways possible - as Bruce observed somewhere far back.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 26, 2012 - 07:16pm PT
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Yes, I realize the M.H. has hiked to many areas on his own two feet. Very nicely done. Not everyone is able to hike up to that vista and I still don't really understand what makes the "able" people so much better than the "less able".
I agree, trails are built by volunteers, and with a possible hub of activity up there, those same volunteers may direct some effort in that direction. And/or the Proponents may easily find it in their best interests to contract out a killer single track trail leading all the way back down to Indian Arm.
I don't agree about the tram only saving a biker half an hour to reach the same point. Maybe if the rider is Niel Kindree or Chris Christie; for us run of the mill bikers, that ain't no half hour.
Looking ahead a little, I believe the Proponents could view the biker market as potential riders. Why not? The Goat Ridge descent can take four to seven hours as it stands; add in another hour or two for the traverse over from the upper terminal and you've got yourself an exceptional outing for thirty bucks. People hire helicopters to get there and that's around $200.00 a head.
Does everyone realize that 80% of the area up there is old logging blocks?
For the argument of holding the land in pristine condition for generations to come, what's coming is the yarder, the skidder, and the logging truck. That's what happens with logging areas in B.C., they get logged. Again and again.
I just assume the same group which is anti-gondola would have to be anti-logging regarding the precious basin up top. I would think that by letting the people hike, bike, and climb their little hearts out up there, a better argument could be made to stop the logging in that area.
Glad my mom taught me how to share...
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 26, 2012 - 08:18pm PT
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But you have lift towers located in Provincial Parks right in your back yard. Is this a N.I.M.B.Y thing for Vancouverites? Or is it an "O.K." in my back yard but "Not" in the back yard where I go to play on the weekends.
I realize the cables are the issues, that's easy. The question is, do the benefits justify a compromise? I see several benefits, and only one set of cables.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 26, 2012 - 08:47pm PT
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I never called anyone a "city slicker", just for the record. I've been asking everyone I run into over the last month and I've only had one local opposed. Furthermore, I don't believe their vote counts as they were certain the tram was going up the Chief.
Don't worry, I'm not saying it's us vs them, I'm simply mentioning that you folks live on the North Shore, complete with gondola towers in both of your Provincial Parks, right in your back yard. Just seems a little strange, that's all.
Keep calling me crazy, just like 600 posts ago.
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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Apr 26, 2012 - 08:49pm PT
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These bike trails would be built through the park ?
The parks in N Van with lift towers were constructed before they were parks so its hard to make a comparison there.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 26, 2012 - 08:50pm PT
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My guess would be a no. Too steep in that direction.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Apr 26, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
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OK - I'll advocate for the loggers. Sign over all logging rights to the municipalities, so perhaps loggers might actually be able to have jobs in perpetuity for a change. Additionally, FYI - one of the most dedicated defenders of the boundaries of Strathcona Park is a second generation logger. Not all people who believe in the sanctity of Class "A" park boundaries are granolas.
I'm repeating myself but, in case you haven't noticed, climbing is one of the most elitist pastimes out there, and I don't think mountain biking and back country skiing are all that far behind, so forgive me for gagging when I read this stuff about helping lesser mortals enjoy nature. If these poor creatures are so starved from a view up high, then send them up to Fat City for a look. If they merely wish to see nature in a pristine state, then let's take them for a nice walk in a Class "A" park that hasn't had its boundaries altered so someone can try to hustle some bucks - if any Class "A" parks have EVER survived this kind of cynical abuse of the public trust. Yeah - it's only a small chunk of park land, and mothers-to-be are only a little bit pregnant - for a while.
By the way, is Tami the only female with the, uh, ovaries to oppose this gondola?
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 26, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
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Not dead yet!
I guess I worded that a little poorly. I realize those Parks in North Van came complete with lift towers; my general point is that it works. People use the Park, people do Park-like activities, they're not burning cop cars on Robson st., it works. Why can't it work up here?
If nobody cares about the land up top, and you can't really care too much about the gravel pit, as it's privately owned, then I guess the big turnoff is having to look at a gondola?
Is looking at a gondola really interfering with the wilderness experience up on the Chief summit? A little, no doubt. But so are the few hundred hikers with their i-phones fully engaged.
Sure, in an ideal world, the gondola would start from (hiding) behind the Papoose. But I would think the reality is that area has no road, no flat 6 acre lot, no highway appeal, mass powerlines, etc., etc....
Hence the compromise.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 26, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
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Now that's a nice bit of writing, Jim. Wish I had that skill.
My views aren't tainted by any sense of Downtown Revitalization. Like Bruce said earlier, we could all come up with much better uses for that amount of money. That's not really the issue. The issue is a company wanting to build a gondola, which, from what I can tell, will invariably open up more terrain around here.
Yes, you'll have to look at it from the top of the Chief but perhaps when hikers see the bikes dangling off the capsules, they'll think about broadening their horizons and check out a different sport.
Like I said before, the more people getting their heartrates up, the better for our society. Just my opinion.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Apr 27, 2012 - 01:28am PT
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Bruce - elitist to the point that if there was no climbing, biking or skiing potential up there, there wouldn't be the slightest support from climbers for a gondola just so that the aged & infirm types could get a nice view.
Have even ONE of you guys addressed the central point of this discussion? If this gondola was the first time that the boundaries of a a Class "A" park were to be adjusted to suit the purposes of some hustler trying to get rich by stealing public land, then I personally just might be willing to consider the merits of the proposal PROVIDING that it was made clear that this kind of crap would end forever afterwards. The fact that those assurances aren't in place is the reason that I am adamant even about a couple of "crummy acres" being removed. Another question that none of you have troubled yourselves to answer is WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE? 5 acres? 500?
Are you even aware that there are several other categories of park land out there, and if so, why weren't you objecting to the placement of this area in the category that allegedly gives it protection in perpetuity?
Here's something to ask these developers at these meetings - are the funds to finance this project actually coming out of the personal savings of the proponents, and will they and their families be penniless if the project goes tilt? I'll save you the trouble of asking - the answer is no, and the citizens of B.C. will be stuck with another destroyed chunk of another Class "A" park, and these guys will just move on to another project, and probably in another Class "A" park.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 27, 2012 - 10:12am PT
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Hi Woz. Good to hear your views. In answer to your question asking if the public need a view so badly, then why not send them up to Whistler: why send them to Whistler? If I remember correctly, you moved away from Squamish due to a lack of work. Hmmm. Your other point about Joe and Jill Public being able to go for a nice walk in a class A Park which hasn't had its boundaries adjusted: even with a 20 meter easement running up the slope, they'll still be able to go for their nice walk as the easement won't interfere with any of the trails.
As far as lift towers in Provincial Parks in North Van., and in Whistler, as Bruce points out, my point is these lifts are full of people, families, getting outside and breathing fresh air. They're skiing, hiking, biking, bird watching. What on earth is so tragic about this behavoir?
This is the outdoor recreation capital of Canada, not the Casino capital, not the stock car race capital, not the shopping capital.
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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Apr 27, 2012 - 10:17am PT
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The lift on Cypress was put in nearly thirty years BEFORE it became a park...Cypress became a park in 75
Hollyburn lift was constructed in 51, which was years after the first rope tow which was installed in the 40's
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 27, 2012 - 10:48am PT
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Funny how, when you reach around three or four hundred posts, everyone starts repeating themselves.
If nobody cares about the lands up top, or at the base, then it really does boil down to the easement. Either that or people are jealous someone might make more money than them (that would be embarassing). No one's tearing any land out of the Park. That land isn't going anywhere; it's just having it's name changed from class A to Protected. Classification, a matter of paperwork. It will still be Parkland. Is it the loss of all those trees that need to come down? The tree number is actually quite low and I can't see any climber having any argument in that direction. Climbers have been removing trees from the Chief area for thirty or forty years.
As we mentioned earlier, that lift will be so valueable, even if it fails someone will buy it and fly it out of there, all in about one week of chopper time.
The only remnants would be little cubes of re-bar filled concrete which won't even stick out of the ground very far at all. You'll never see those with the naked eye. The easement would regenerate, because that's what coastal B.C. does best.
Sure it's a bit of a gamble, but it's not like they're asking you to buy shares. And in light of the economic downturn over the past four years, show me a proposal which isn't a little bit risky.
Anyone willing to compromise?
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 27, 2012 - 12:27pm PT
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Tami: Do you mean Bruce?
I don't really care which lift went in at what time and which mountain became a Park at exactly what date. I'm simply pointing out that Vancouver has it's share of lift towers in Provincial Parks and I don't recall hearing any whining about it. That's because it works.
Suddenly Squamish wants to share a similar look and a special interest group from forty miles down the road in Vancouver (the city with lift towers in their parks) starts stomping their collective feet and say No.
It just doesn't quite add up, that's all.
Out of curiosity, how many of the opposed wouldn't take their parents up there?
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Tricouni
Mountain climber
Vancouver
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Apr 27, 2012 - 01:16pm PT
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Suddenly Squamish wants to share a similar look and a special interest group from forty miles down the road in Vancouver (the city with lift towers in their parks) starts stomping their collective feet and say No.
It just doesn't quite add up, that's all.
My notes from the Britannia meeting show that about half of those who spoke against the gondola were from Vancouver (includes West Van, etc.). The other half came from Squamish. Some people from Vancouver, including Surly Don, spoke in favour of the project. Some young people opposed it, some old people opposed it. From what I could gather, the climbing community seemed to be slightly in favour. So it's not just an us/them thing and it's false to present it that way.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 27, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
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Uh... I'm not sure how to say this Hamish, but... Ya see, one of the things that got me interested in supporting this project was your bringing up the idea of the gondola opening up more territory for bicycling.
But, well, the more I think about it, the more I think that the best biking is right here in Seattle. Here are a couple of shots of the local riding scene. Have a look at them and explain again why I should drive up to Squamish and pay money to take a gondola up to some place where I'd probably wind up breaking my leg, when I've got this, right here.
and
Yeah, I think I'll just do my riding right here at home.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 27, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
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I agree. We can't touch that riding scene you have south of the border.
O.K., I'm willing to accept there are some Squamites against the tram; I'm sure they're here somewhere, I just haven't run into any of them.
Perhaps it's like the old saying "bad news travels 100 times the speed of good news". Sure there were a handful of Squamites opposed who attended the meeting, but as Bruce mentioned, how many pro-trammies didn't bother going.
For every Ed Cooper there could quite likely be twenty Don Serls. Or a hundred.
And I'll try to behave myself and stop using the North Shore as an example of how gondolas get along with Provincial Parks. I can easily shift my focus northwards, up to Whistler. I'll try to leave Vancouver, the largest clearcut in the Province, alone.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Apr 27, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
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Oh I see what you mean Bruce. Sounds like such a disaster down at Cypress. My god, I don't know how they deal with it all. Some of the No group might even ride the lifts as well. It must be terrible.
We go mtn. biking on the lower flanks of Cypress quite a bit and it's outstanding. We climb some old back roads, some of which get fairly steep at times. Eventually we "top" out somewhere well under the elevation of the ski hill base and rip back down some gorgeous trails. Funny thing is, we never see any of the development up top, in fact it has absolutely no bearing on our outdoor experience at all.
Perhaps once the Squamish gondola goes in and the scruffy cut blocks up top become recreation heaven, your average backside trail hiker won't have a clue what's going on up there.
Maybe I'm the perfect example, actually. I've been doing those Cypress rides for many years and I couldn't tell you anything about the developed area where the tickets are sold. I think I've been there twice in the last 46 years.
So it's entirely possible different user goups can benefit from the same Provincial Park area and not be in each other's faces.
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