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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 13, 2008 - 12:23am PT
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The impact and access issues generated by the 60-80% of people who wouldn't be 'climbers' were it not for your artificially constructed 'trails' are a high price to pay to bringing this risk-free version of climbing to the masses. That they then require ever more new climbs simply keeps a steady hum of drills going around the country. The fact this 'climbing' demographic is a done deal doesn't make it right, good, or correct - if it did then the fact McDonalds is everywhere would have made their food good for you.
And yes, Melvin - the broad I-25 corridor down to to Taos - but we could make that Sante Fe or Las Vegas if you need it to be more precise. Or even within a 30 mile radius of Taos if that makes it all the more familar. But how many bolts will go in this weekend in either? I would guess a veritable symphony of precussion if it could all be heard at the same time.
Oh, and that was Red Rock, NV - not Red Rocks, CO...
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Melvin Mills
Trad climber
Albuquerque NM
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May 13, 2008 - 01:12am PT
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Joe,
I know there will be no sound of bolts going in this weekend in Las Vegas despite the mass quantities of granite there; I have put up routes there ground-up and nobody climbs in the area. I understand your point, although lumping NM into the Front Range does not serve your argument as NM experiences way less development than CO.
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Dogtown Climber
Trad climber
The Idyllwild City dump
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May 13, 2008 - 01:21am PT
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Lets Face it, There is no sport in sport climbing. A rap job is a rap job. Thats my rule ! And that is just what it is,A rule not law. So you rap and I'll lead. And we'll all be happy eating cake.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 13, 2008 - 01:47am PT
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Melvin, however one would describe it - the question is basically how many bolts will be going in this weekend over Bob's 'home range'.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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May 13, 2008 - 06:33am PT
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Wow...bolting Classic,I really never thought I'd see the day that would be discussed.
Bob has decided his opinion matters more because he put up a slew of bolted routes...wow again.
As far apart as when we started.Trad climbers will eventually have to decide if we are just going to lay down and let the pro bolt crowd steal your sport.
Take any piece of rock and remove the bolts,you have a trad climb.Take any piece of rock and remove the gear,you are ready for the next pitch.
Remove the bolts and there is no longer any need for trail work either.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 13, 2008 - 06:56am PT
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So Tom, what does that do for the lines on Bombardment, Recompense, The Book, Thin Air, WG, Moby etc.??? Seneca is a annother good example. Verey few bolts, Total trad area and there are climber crawling all over it like ants. They do have very good trail system and bathrooms though.
The Gunks is just too close to NYC so so matter what, you are going to have congestion and and the A hole factor. Many of those first pitch bolted belays were bundles of tat arround trees in the old days. I remember being told to only do the first pitch of Roseland way back when and it was just a bundle of tat arround a dead stump to get down. The second pitch of Roseland is actually pretty good and the crux INMOP The old pin should be replaced though. It was sketch in 85 and even more sketch in 2002
If you removed the bolted belays then bundles of tat would most likly sprout in the same places.. just too many people down there.....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 13, 2008 - 07:12am PT
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Speaking of Ant's, have you tried to park at Pinkam Notch on a weekend recently? It is amazeing how full it gets with the lots overflowing and cars up and down the side of the road. No bolts up there just a whole crapload of people out enjoying the outdoors... The climbers are here to stay barring a serious plauge ,famin or war and bolts are just a tool to help mannage the trafic flow. They are not the driveing force that created the crowds as much as some would like to believe... Just sit in traffic in the middle of N, Conway on a summer weekend and try to blame all those cars and people on bolts........
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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May 13, 2008 - 07:28am PT
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Trad.Agree both Roseland and Birdland haver excellent second pitches.Have you been to the Gunks recently?The toproping is unbelievable.And the camping out with posse's.
Someone added a bolt anchor to Bombardment,the usual well intended soul armed with the MRS drill.It lasted about 24 hours...lol.
The bolt anchor on the Book causes OPAR.One pitch and rap.There is no need of it,as you can place your whole rack in the corner.But you will have to lead the second pitch.
I have never once seen a toprope set on Bombardment.The difference is that when kept as lead climbs,although a line may exist,it is all moving upwards.Someone can start up Recompense every thirty minutes,all those routes really.On Thin Air you take some chance the party ahead will epic.
Sorry we disagree Trad and TIG.I think if you start out climbing at the Gunks,by the time you toprope what is left of Ken's crack,if you are not ready to lead,climbing may not be for you.Leading at the Gunks is much easier than most places.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 13, 2008 - 07:43am PT
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Tom I totally agree with you that there are places where bolts are not needed but there are pleanty of places where the climbing wouldn't even exist without the bolts. blameing the overcrouding on the bolts justs does not cut it INMOP Certainly the gunks would be a mess regardless of the bolts. I simply don't go there anymore. Too many people, too dirty, too city........
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 13, 2008 - 07:45am PT
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Tom, Park N, Conway 70 miles from NYC and just imagin what a mess it would be....
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 13, 2008 - 09:10am PT
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Joe wrote:nd yes, Melvin - the broad I-25 corridor down to to Taos - but we could make that Sante Fe or Las Vegas if you need it to be more precise. Or even within a 30 mile radius of Taos if that makes it all the more familar. But how many bolts will go in this weekend in either? I would guess a veritable symphony of precussion if it could all be heard at the same time.
There a lot of speculation and very little proof in your post Joe. What was happening along the Front Range was a lot of different people enjoying a lot different climbs in a lot different areas.
Not all of us our limited by some choss pile near a railroad track as our home crag.
Jealous?
Tomcat wrote; Bob has decided his opinion matters more because he put up a slew of bolted routes...wow again.
Not only are you a whiner...you have no idea what you are talking about....I done over 400 to 500 FA of trad routes.
Tomcat wrote:As far apart as when we started.Trad climbers will eventually have to decide if we are just going to lay down and let the pro bolt crowd steal your sport.
They haven't stole anything...your just to lazy to get off your ass and do new routes.
Please underwhelm me with your impressive list of new routes in the Gunks and North Conway,
Can't wait to see it.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 13, 2008 - 09:19am PT
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You put in bolts and a sport anchor, and just see what happens next........
(Just kidding....)
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 13, 2008 - 09:22am PT
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Gotta love those little crags near the railroad tracks, Bob.......
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 13, 2008 - 09:30am PT
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You think this all started with the Kennedys.....smoking pot in the White House, sleeping with movie stars, and driving drunk off of bridges........the REAL trouble started with those damn Anasazi Native Americas WAY before that.........chipping holds, using ladders as aid.......this crap has been going on for a long time......It aint' the Kennedy's or Bob D'Antonio's fault...........really isn't....
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 13, 2008 - 09:34am PT
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Todd wrote:You put in bolts and a sport anchor, and just see what happens next........
Todd...Built it and they will come...built it and they will come.
Nice shots Todd.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 13, 2008 - 09:36am PT
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I'm all for painting the route name at the bottom of climbs too.....not everyone can afford a guidebook, and we don't want anyone getting lost or on the wrong climb and hurt.....It's only a little paint;...if you use the right type, it won't hurt the environment at all, and it will , in the long run, save lives........the pad people with their plant-crushing pads........now THERE is a REAL problem that must be stopped......
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 13, 2008 - 09:39am PT
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EVERYONE knows that rock is ugly until it has chalk and bolts on it.......get over yourselves, people....(Bob D'Antionio did NOT put that chalk or the bolts on this rock...FYI.....)
(This post needed some photos, didn't it......?)
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 13, 2008 - 09:43am PT
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This ain't the Gunks.....(Or What happens in New Paltz, stays in New Paltz...)
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 13, 2008 - 09:47am PT
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It's happening as we speak, people......man your crowbars, and call up your state representative.........Boulder sport park; here we come.......
Or are we too late already....
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 13, 2008 - 10:33am PT
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CSdude...it really is a horrible thing those bolts on Mr. Breeze...we should just shoot Alex for doing something like this to somebody. Look at that...families hanging out, camping, sitting around a campfire bonding and climbing together. WTF is climbing coming too!!!
On any given weekend from spring to late fall you can see this type of bizarre behavior by climbers and families camping, climbing, talking and enjoying themselves in the San Luis Valley and Shelf Rd.
What have I done???
Then we have folks like Mr. Stannard ( who has never even been to said areas) passing judgement on me because I placed bolts, worked on trails, installed bathrooms, campsites, gave slideshows, organized cleanups, collected donated gear to give to volunteers and worked with land managers, Access Fund, IMBA and the American Mountain Foundation to find a common ground for people to enjoy their time in the outdoor.
it is really horrible when I go to the SLV and see non-climbing families picnicking and walking on the trail watching climbers and asking questions and enjoying a beautiful day in a beautiful little canyon in southern Colorado and to see climbers with their mountain bikes going for a ride after a beautiful day of climbing and then going back to well kept camping site and watching a amazing sunset over the Sangre de Christo mountains.
I also can't believe I written 14 hiking, mountain biking and climbing guides to several different areas and giving people the opportunity to explore new trails and climbs and getting them in the outdoors for a welcome break from their lives. Also can't understand why I donated some of my royalties to different outdoor group to help with access issues.
I'm so sorry Mr. Stannard (and the others) for doing so little while you John have done so much in the last 25 years. You keep pushing that pen and sending your $25 memberships fees in while I'll continue to sit around and pick my nose.
Really...there must be something extremely sour in my head for doing such things.
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