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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 21, 2019 - 07:06pm PT
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TheBraveCowboy:
Regarding:
That bachar got all that stuff nuked
No photo posted by John Bachar has ever been nuked on this site. Period. Full stop.
John posted on this site 2,566 times (you can see them here). I'm not aware of any post by John ever being deleted. And, not once did John ever upload an image to this site. He simply hotlinked to images, and those links remain intact.
Regarding:
I am not sure where ST is trying to land in the webscape of climbing
The only place we are trying to land with regard to image uploads is as a site that does not tolerate copyright infringement.
We think it is wrong, immoral, unnecessary for our mission, and we have never allowed it in our Terms of Service. You may not agree, and you may want to start your own website that invites copyright infringement. That is your right. But, our rules are not unreasonable, and we're not going to back off an 18-year old policy that abhors and disallows the abuse of copyrights.
If our policy on copyright infringement causes some people to decide this place is not right for them, then we will understand it if those people decide to go elsewhere. People are free to choose, and a wide range of choices is one of the things that makes the internet so amazing.
Our point of view on images is simple: copyright infringement is not OK.
We believe our mission for the SuperTopo Forum can be met with images that people own or have the rights to. That mission:
To provide a resource for climbers of all skill levels and experience to get information about climbing and climbing destinations.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Apr 21, 2019 - 07:12pm PT
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I feel that the baby with the bathwater approach is warranted here
Not sure I agree with that cowboy. You and I have had cordial off forum correspondence, so hope you will hear me out.
I'm not really sure what is going on as the hosts have not been transparent as to the reason they are taking the tack they have. The reason for the lack of transparency and seeming random deletions is above my pay grade. I'm assuming there is a pending lawsuit if the forum does not comply with copy right law.
When good people leave, the forum suffers. I for one have questions about what is going on. However, when all is said and done, it would be a shame to see the hosts pull the plug on the forum.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 21, 2019 - 07:26pm PT
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of course
SuperTopo has never allowed in our Terms of Service the uploading of images that infringe on the copyrights of others to be uploaded on the site. If you think your image may not comply with our Terms of Service, then please don't upload it (or please immediately delete it if it was previously uploaded).
However,
They were never enforced
Lulling folks into violating the terms
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Apr 21, 2019 - 07:46pm PT
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I will continue to try to get along with ST management, in the current dilema they find themselves in.
Of course, I could be bitter about them deleting all my thousands of photos I had hosted on their ST web-site since 2009.
But I'm better than that.
Hey! Check out my now photo-missing Trip Reports on ST.
Pursuit of BlueBonnet tower and the Lost Crystal Cave. Dec 2009 http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Pursuit-of-Bluebonnet-Tower-and-the-Lost-Crystal-Cave-Sawtooths-Idaho/t10506n.html
I do need to share Chris's comment on this story:
Elephant’s Perch New route 1/15/2010
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Elephant_s_Perch_Sawtooth_Range_Idaho_NR_Epic_Pacydermial_Pleasantries_1977/t10566n.html
Mt Fay 1978 revised 2011 Trip Report.
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/MARK-FRITZS-BIG-MT-FAY-1978-CANADIAN-ADVENTURE/t11242n.html
Donini at The City of Rocks: Climbing as a Lifetime Sport! 2010
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Donini-at-The-City-of-Rocks-Climbing-as-a-Lifetime-Sport/t10740n.htm
A SLICK ROCK Adventure in Idaho with a single Blue Camalot Belay aug.2015
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-SLICK-ROCK-Adventure-in-Idaho-with-a-single-Blue-Camalot-Belay/t12821n.html
Owyhee adventures: rock, cows, ticks, guns, Prehistoric women, & secret Air Force bombing sites. July 4th 2011
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Owyhee-adventures-rock-cows-ticks-guns-Prehistoric-women-secret-Air-Force-bombing-sites/t11055n.html
6-day San Juan River Workout, rafting, & Lost Tribe of Prehistoric Women Search Epic!
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/6-day-San-Juan-River-Workout-rafting-Lost-Tribe-of-Prehistoric-Women-Search-Epic/t11013n.html
Training for, then climbing a 28,999’ Tropical Volcano
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/TRAINING-FOR-THEN-CLIMBING-an-AWESOME-8839-meter-28-999-Ft-TROPICAL-VOLCANO/t11824n.html
A Ridge So Far &/or Am I getting too-old for this? Idaho 2018
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-Ridge-So-Far-or-Am-I-getting-too-old-for-this/t13337n.html
FRITZ & HIS FLIES! BITING-FLESH ADVENTURES IN DEEPEST IDAHO! 2018
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/FRITZ-HIS-FLIES-BITING-FLESH-ADVENTURES-IN-DEEPEST-IDAHO/t13327n.html
A Search for Cave art, Prehistoric women, Wine & Adventures in France 2015
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-Search-for-Cave-art-Prehistoric-women-Wine-Adventures-in-France/t12848n.html
HOTEL TO HOTEL HIKING WITH HEIDI & JERRY & ANGIE IN THE DOLOMITES 2018
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/HOTEL-TO-HOTEL-HIKING-WITH-HEIDI-JERRY-ANGIE-IN-THE-DOLOMITES/t13352n.html
A visit to Dubrovnik, some sailing in Croatia, & an Octoberfest Party on the way home 2017
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-visit-to-Dubrovnik-some-sailing-in-Croatia-an-Octoberfest-Party-on-the-way-home/t13220n.html[/quote]
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter, Little Rock
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Apr 21, 2019 - 07:52pm PT
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Of course, I could be bitter about them deleting all my thousands of photos I had hosted on the ST web-site since 2009.
But I'm better than that.
Yeah Fritz. Taking umbrage serves no purpose. But yeah, it sucks that the hosts are taking such draconian measures for apparently no freaking reason. RJ's posts are nothing but legalese. There must be a way he or CMac could give some insight without compromising their legal position.
I understand why there is reason for exodus, but let's hang on and see where this goes?
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Apr 21, 2019 - 07:57pm PT
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I hear you John, just as I do RJ and MB1 and Willbeer and Fritz and of course our dear zbrown. I agree that the forum suffers when folks leave. I am not gonna leave but I don't really wanna come play here anymore, which sucks for me and for the folks with whom the stoke and the adventurism of new route and new summit rock climbing I shared in common. As far as umbrage, Fritz, I'll take a double helping, and thanks for your share ;-)
I almost brought the bigger of your two gifted tube chocks out for a wide steep granite FA on Friday, Johntp, ended up glad to not have brought that huge old paperweight up as it was quite flaring, btw, and of course not quite as wide/deep as it looked from below. i will email you when i use the tube chocks on some choss eventually, and share a link. :-)
The fact that I, with all of my material, could well be instantaneously, without warning, permanently and arbitrarily nuked for saving and reposting material that Bachar linked is completely bogus and RJ chose to ignore that in his response. I don't really care to engage RJ any further in his thankless task of explaining and justifying the twofold f*#kery of copyright image stuff and political castration of the forum.
All I know is that I will lurk and maybe attaboy erry now and then but for the most part the haphazard and anti-discourse management turns are a real turn-off.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter, Little Rock
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Apr 21, 2019 - 08:19pm PT
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for the most part the haphazard and anti-discourse management turns are a real turn-off.
As longtime members and contributors, we deserve some explanation for the random deletions/bannings/photo regulation. Understood the copy right issue is a concern to the hosts, so that is justified; deleting owned photos makes no sense.
I could give a ratz arse about political threads and will be happy to see them gone, but don't understand how they are a liability to the the forum hosts unless there is commercial interest.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 21, 2019 - 08:42pm PT
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This all way above my pay grade. In internet matters I am a complete Luddite. I’ll take the easy way out and cease to contribute photos...ciao!
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Apr 21, 2019 - 08:49pm PT
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^ this is a huge loss to ST and it is a completely logical response by one of the most exalted members (idols?) of our community. cheers Donini, and thanks for sharing as much as you did, it was priceless magic that your pixels conveyed. probably better to keep that kinda big medicine stored safe and sound where it won't get into the (wider "climbing" public's) wrong hands nor get zapped without warning along with your (entire) profile when you inadvertently post a copyrighted image of something silly (like TV's dicktater carved potato pic).
whose umbrage was that I borrowed? bc I think I want a bit more and the loss of the mystery virgin peak pics from Donini has just increased market value for umbrage pie.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Apr 21, 2019 - 09:35pm PT
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So you (we) just lost Donini. And Guido. And yet administration still claims the higher moral ground. Give me a break. Don't you see where you are wrong? You come back with unflinching confidence in yourself but look at who we're losing because of your tactics. That should give you a clue and it flies in the face of every single one of your dead-pan responses.
In short, you and us are all losing something that was great.
Arne
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 21, 2019 - 09:38pm PT
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Something is amiss when the venerable and downright good man cannot seem to find a way to fit in!
Can't even find a photo to purloin of Jim Donini.
Shame
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 21, 2019 - 09:59pm PT
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^^^That is otherworldly, humorous, and beautiful.
Donini & Guido's exits are like sand in the mouth.
Marlow's historical deletions are terrifying.
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 22, 2019 - 06:24am PT
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Tarbuster:
I would hope that Donini changes his mind.
The fact is that our rule is pretty simple: only upload photos you own or have rights to.
I find it hard to believe that Donini won't find a route past that challenge. He has managed to master so many greater challenges in the past. I don't expect this to slow him down for long.
Marlow's historical deletions are terrifying.
I don't feel the same way.
Marlow's scans of other people's copyrighted articles are not appropriate for posting on SuperTopo. I'm appreciative that he removed them.
It is disrespectful to the authors, publishers, and photographers of copyrighted materials to infringe on their work. We can't condone it, and we're not going to embrace an immoral and unethical stance that pretends copyright infringement is OK.
I have a hard time believing that you, Roy, would really advocate that people on this site disregard other people's copyrights.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 22, 2019 - 06:47am PT
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I believe that I have reached a point in life where I can make executive decisions regarding certain matters. If I use images that I don’t own but that I know that I have tacit approval to use, I will do so.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Apr 22, 2019 - 06:53am PT
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RJ Spurrier
It is disrespectful to the authors, publishers, and photographers of copyrighted materials to infringe on their work.
You can turn this on the head: When I posted the long forgotten articles (most of them) I was appreciative of what the authors had written. I gave the articles a second life and in a form that didn't compete with the original. It was photos. I did it out of respect. Respect for the authors and respect for their themes and subjects. That is not easy to see if all that is on your mind is lawyers, ownership and money.
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 22, 2019 - 06:59am PT
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Marlow:
I was appreciative of what the authors had written... I did it out of respect. Respect for the authors and respect for their themes and subjects.
I did not mean to impune your good intentions.
And, I think everyone here understands your intentions had the very best of motivations, and your posts seem to fall under the Fair Use guidelines: to honor the authors and publishers of that valued work, to reignite interest in the copyright holders work, allow commentary and awareness of it for educational purposes, and to celebrate their work.
That said, we don't want scans of copyrighted content on SuperTopo, and are appreciate that you removed them.
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Apr 22, 2019 - 07:12am PT
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as tragic as all this is, not having personally pointed a camera at a dead horse, my opinion will not at this time be accompanied by illustration or image
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Apr 22, 2019 - 07:12am PT
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I think everyone here understands your intentions had the very best of motivations, and your posts seem to fall under the Fair Use guidelines: to honor the authors and publishers of that valued work, to reignite interest in the copyright holders work, allow commentary and awareness of it for educational purposes, and to celebrate their work.
That said, we don't want scans of copyrighted content on SuperTopo, and are appreciate that you removed them.
Which means there's fear of lawyers all the way down...
... a primary concern that is not well grounded on a climbing website, but not without reason...
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 22, 2019 - 07:30am PT
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Marlow:
Which means there's fear of lawyers all the way down...
Definitely.
Our copyright policy has been the same for 18 years and has always been very conservative. Our image upload policy is based in the simple idea that the only images that are appropriate to upload here are those you own or have the right to, and that do not infringe on anyone else's intellectual property or privacy rights.
And, yes, fear of a lawyer suing or even threatening to sue SuperTopo is a key part of our motivation. That isn't something we're going to apologize for. It involves time and money we don't feel we can afford. The Forum is a community service that loses money today without the additional burden of time and money stemming from legal disputes. We just don't want to take that kind of risk.
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