Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Tricouni
Mountain climber
Vancouver
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2012 - 12:55pm PT
|
Really sorry to hear that; my sympathies. I know what that sort of day is like
At the Britannia meeting, the proponents said that they would "look at" the possibility of allowing bikes and dogs on the gondola. Sounds like no guarantee either way.
The only thing they have promised is a "1-km loop trail" in the vicinity of the upper terminus. That's it.
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
|
Bruce, clearly stating your self-interest is simply being honest. That is how the system works best. The facts and truth emerge from a process where parties can clearly and freely express their self-interests and come to a compromise or a solution acceptable to a majority of the players.
I imagine the S2S folks are expressing their self-interest rather vigorously.
|
|
Tricouni
Mountain climber
Vancouver
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
|
well lets look at it this way. Lets say they decide not to allow bikes and dogs on the gondi. I guess you could say that is a worst case scenario for some of us (i have a dog and may yet bike)
So does that mean we suddenly say no way - i'm opposed?
No, Bruce, it doesn't, not for me, anyways. I was merely supplying data. As you know, I'm opposed to the project, but not because it will/will not allow me better/worse/unchanged access to the back country.
|
|
Tricouni
Mountain climber
Vancouver
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
|
the thing is still a gondola going where its going. Maybe they'll also disallow hiking outside of thier dummy loop. Maybe all this promise of locals passes and so on is bull. Maybe they'll throw a gate up at 1 km on the road.
Maybe, maybe not. If the thing gets approval, and I think it probably will, then it's incumbent on us to work to make sure it gets done in the least damaging way possible and with the greatest benefits to park and back-country users.
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
|
Bruce, you were post 666!!! Cool!
|
|
bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
|
This still could end up going completely sideways on the backcountry user - get some f*#king promises written down on paper - backcountry users could get screwed and have less access
What if they manage to CONTROL access to Habrich and Sky Pilot - imagine how f*#ked up that would be. Think twice before you sign on as a cheerleader here, because the lead cheerleaders have made a lot of asumptions
|
|
Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2012 - 06:58pm PT
|
and a chunk of land for the parkland they want to steal!
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2012 - 07:30pm PT
|
The developers want to take public land, some of which is in high profile and heavily used parks, for commercial purposes. Their sole goal, or at least that of the investor(s) behind the proposal, is to make money. They will do whatever they can and are allowed to for that purpose. Anything else is subsidiary - as they say, follow the money. That in turn means that anything not in a written contract or equivalent may never happen. Even if it's on paper, the other side has to hold the developer to whatever promises are made. Would the province or the District have the gumption to do so?
Let's say the project is partly or largely built, and the developers say that for economic reasons they can't carry through with the rest of what they said they'd do. (Or, worse still, that they need additional concessions from the governments.) Governments don't seem very good at holding developers to their promises in the best of times.
At least some of the developer's promises to the District are in a covenant registered against the proposed base property. More easily enforced than a contract, if the District was prepared to do so. I wonder if promises to BC Parks will also be in a covenant?
Call me a realist, or a skeptic. Promises are cheap, making them happen is another matter. For example, anyone who believes that there would be vehicle access past the lower part of the Habrich road should ask to see a written commitment to that effect, signed by Squamish, BC Parks, BC Forests, the SLRD and the developers. Everyone who needs to sign on, and could say "no".
My working hypothesis is that they'd build the bottom and top terminals, the gondola, facilities at the bottom and top, bus access to Shannon Falls, tie-ins with bus tours companies, and maybe a shuttle to the casino. That's what will make them money, certainly in the short to medium term. Things to corral visitors and separate them from their money. Maybe they'd gradually add all the other things that are talked about - mountain bike trails and access, hiking trails, links to the Chief trails, vehicle and foot access to Habrich and Sky Pilot, and so on. But none seem likely to be significant money-makers, and I wouldn't be surprised if some or all didn't happen, or if they did, that it wasn't at the developer's behest.
If the project was 'flipped' to another buyer, before or after construction, it would probably be harder to enforce any promises.
On a related note, how will the proposal benefit downtown Squamish? Tourists might stop off for a few hours to ride the gondola, eat something, maybe buy some stuff. Some might overnight in Squamish. But will the gondola in and of itself draw many to Squamish, or will it mostly be people stopping off for a few hours en route to Whistler?
|
|
hamish f
Social climber
squamish
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2012 - 10:54pm PT
|
"you guys better get that in writing"
I've never really understood this approach. I could wrap my head around it if I owned the land, certainly. Just seems like a bit of a joke to ask the Developers for everything that makes YOU happy. Suggestions, for sure, but demands? Are you kidding me? From a bunch of people printing their thoughts on supertopo?
As the Landowner, yes, get it in writing. As one of the two million, how bout politely offer a suggestion, try to maintain some manners, and don't be so quick to call these guys the enemy.
|
|
RyanD
climber
Squamish
|
|
|
Apr 25, 2012 - 12:06am PT
|
Normally this would not be necessary Hamish (getting it in writing, requests, however you want to word it) but the fact is that they are proposing development that affects public lands,
Lands that are supposed to belong to you & I & the rest of Squamish & BC & many of the supertopropers out there. It is for this reason that we should have a wee bit of a say what should be done with it & it is far from outrageous for us (whether for or against) to have full disclosure & transperancy & assurance that any promises made will be guaranteed & not just smoke from the anus of s2sgc or whatever they are called this week. The developers & their wants & needs should not be put in front of those of the people who are supposed to own the lands --us!
Todd Eastman thanks for your posts/point of view on this issue, they are always interesting.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Apr 25, 2012 - 12:40am PT
|
I agree with Ryan. If they were proposing to develop land that they owned, that would be one thing. As it's not only public land, but park land, a much higher level of scrutiny is appropriate - if it should be considered at all. Whatever might be built will never be exactly as advertised, but the public interest needs to be upheld.
As for getting promises in writing - such promises are so much hot air, unless they're in writing, and even then the governments still have to hold them to such promises, which they don't always do.
(As every second company in the Squamish area is "Sea to Sky" or "S2S" something, not a very useful abbreviation.)
|
|
hamish f
Social climber
squamish
|
|
|
Apr 25, 2012 - 10:29am PT
|
Thank-you both, Ryan and Anders, for being so polite... you guys really are a breath of fresh air. Seriously.
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
|
Apr 25, 2012 - 12:54pm PT
|
Bruce, the media will get interested in this essentially local or provincial issue when there is a perception of strong public interest in a full and public vetting of the proposal. The news would not be the proposal but rather the conflict it engenders within both the local community and throughout the region.
Information comes in many forms. While the developers have their information and selectively provide the bits required to meet their needs of moving the project forward, citizens frequently have a wealth of information that may either support or refute the developer's claims. It is up to citizens to collect their information through public records searches, observations, and discussions and bring the information to the public's attention. Citizen action rarely ends projects but it can go a long ways towards mitigating damages and shaping the project's outcome. All of you that have spent years crawling all over the Chief and the surrounding area have a vast amount of information about the location and have lots to bring to the table, whether you are pro, nay, or undecided.
Now should the Chinese develop a taste for BC granite counter tops and the Chief was in the cross-hairs, I expect the discussion would have a different tone...
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
|
Apr 25, 2012 - 01:16pm PT
|
Watergate was the result of a bungled burglary and a leak of inside information...
Information is power and in negotiations the power is in the information closely held.
Anders thanks for all your efforts!
|
|
bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
|
|
|
Apr 25, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
|
These developers are going to see that capitalizing on the up top activities is going to be just one more revenue stream if they can get it.
Don't let this happen. Imagine if Access to Habrich and Sky Pilot trails are required with the purchase of a trail users pass ?
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Apr 25, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
|
Yes, I certainly support the CBC, especially its news and journalism programs on both radio and television. If it can keep a critical eye on governments, fine with me - all governments.
Last week the opposition environment critic said that BC Parks (Ministry of the Environment) was "missing in action" on the proposal. It is the agency that ought to be conducting a thorough, independent, public scrutiny of the proposal, including inclusive public meetings. Looking at the questions of whether land should be removed from parks at all, if so whether it should be removed from these parks for this purpose, and if so making damn sure that the public gets the best deal possible, and that the developers are held to that deal. A process coordinated with the needed local approvals - Squamish, Regional District, Forests, etc. But out in the open, and inclusive.
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
Apr 25, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
|
Just another good argument for removing at least some news media from influence of either.
Once you get past the point of putting information up on your Facebook page or your personal blog, you have to start spending money. So I'm curious about where you think the money to support this news source you're so keen on -- the one that's free from outside influences -- is going to come from. To say nothing about how the source of this funding will not be an influence.
It gets really tiring, to say nothing of insulting, to listen to this kind of sh#t. Can't you see you're doing exactly what you were so pissed at Anders for doing? Hinting that the evil news media are controlled by evil forces and that explains why they won't put your pet story on the front page?
Sure there are corrupt newspaper executives and TV and Radio station owners, and corrupt reporters, too. And plenty of lazy ones. As well as some that can be intimidated into silence. Just as there are corrupt politicians and rapacious developers.
But maybe, instead of just mouthing the same old BS about how everyone in the news business is a greedy corrupt hack, you could do what you asked Anders to do: dig for some evidence.
Either that, or acknowledge that Anders' original approach -- smearing with innuendo -- is the one you're now proud to take.
Pot, meet Kettle.
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
|
Apr 25, 2012 - 05:05pm PT
|
There has been a recognized wall between the news departments and the programing/advertising departments. This has been the traditional model but with huge reductions in news department budgets, the quality and quantity of investigative journalism has been whomped in both broadcast and print media. So while, ideally advertising doesn't tilt news, the general lack of money has caused the media to slash news departments, and that lack of deeper journalism play into the big moneyed interests that prefer to operate out of the public's view...
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
Apr 25, 2012 - 05:25pm PT
|
Does this reality mute the effectiveness of media in persuing the goods? The more beholden one is, the less likely one is to criticize?
Of course it does. Same as in any industry I know of. Which is the danger inherent in allowing all of a region's news media to be controlled by one entity. But as long as there are competing news outlets, there is hope, because the people or groups they are beholden to are often at each other's throats.
We all have to live in this world. Well, all of us except Werner. Which means we have to deal with the needs and desires of others. You can not escape influence. Jim works in the construction industry, which has an horrific reputation of corruption. Does that make him a criminal? Does that mean the buildings he supervises will have foundations that crumble in the first wet year? Pick an industry or field of endeavor. Any industry. And you will find corruption, old-boy networking, price-fixing, back-room dealing, and a whole list of other evils.
Let's ask Ms. Knight, whose work is as far from the horrible world of big business and big government as it is possible to get. Tami teaches circus arts to kids. And I will bet she faces exactly these same issues, if on a smaller scale. Venues have to be found, rent has to be paid, staff has to be hired. The staff that is hired competes for raises. Moms hint that if their kid gets favorable treatment there might be something extra in the Christmas stocking. All the usual things that lead to corruption.
There is no escape from it. In the news business or in your kid's scout troop. Or anywhere else.
But that does not mean that the stories that should be told are all suppressed. Nor that all involved in the news business have sold out. Reporters are beaten and killed almost every day because they are trying to do exactly what you wish they would do. And yet, evil is brought to light every day.
So put down that brush and pail of tar, and lend a hand. If the first guy you tipped off about this didn't do anything, tip off someone else. And if, at the end of your efforts, no one has picked this story up and run with it, it doesn't necessarily mean the news media are corrupt or lazy. It may just mean no one thinks this particular story is interesting enough to bother with. They may feel that some developer presented a plan, that the various government bodies involved held some public meetings, and that the plan will likely go ahead/be nixed. No real story.
Think of it this way: The advertisers that provide the money to keep the news media alive don't usually give a sh#t about anything that doesn't directly impact their own business. Do you really believe that Joe, of Joe's Chrysler Dealership wants the Vancouver Sun to kill a story about development near the Chief? Of course not. All he cares about is that as many people as possible see his ad.
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
Apr 25, 2012 - 05:54pm PT
|
Well there may be a story. As you and I have both said, it is certainly possible that there is some dirty money changing hands. And even if the deal is clean as can be, there is also the possibility that the developer's business plan is flawed.
And these things should be suggested as possible topics of coverage by the media in the region. But that they are not front page news isn't evidence that the media have been bought off.
I just get upset when all in the news business are dumped on over the sins of some. Just as you would if that attitude was taken toward your industry.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!