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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 19, 2008 - 07:51pm PT
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You talkin' to me, Eric? What's your point, I made several assertions?
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MisterE
Trad climber
My Inner Nut
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Nov 19, 2008 - 07:57pm PT
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Dude, the guy has obviously been there and knows whats going on! I just think it is armchair warriorism to quote from sources that anyone can put any information, regardless of truth.
That's all I was saying
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 19, 2008 - 07:57pm PT
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"On Tuesday, a major Norwegian shipping group, Odfjell SE, ordered its more than 90 tankers to sail around Africa rather than use the Suez Canal after the seizure of the Saudi tanker.
"We will no longer expose our crew to the risk of being hijacked and held for ransom by pirates in the Gulf of Aden," said Terje Storeng, Odfjell's president and chief executive."
Has the Cape of Good Hope gotten a lot safer lately? Maybe better to take their chances with the pirates. All of a sudden it's just like the 16th century again.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 19, 2008 - 08:07pm PT
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Eric, with statements like this, "I certainly admit upfront to bias in that I've seen first hand what foreign intervention (primarily US) has done to undermine organic peace and state building processes in Somalia."
I gotta step back and say, WTF??? The U.S. is the primary 'intervener' in Somalia? That's not what I've read the last few years, I gotta call him on it. He was there and personally verified this 'intervention' that was primarily U.S?
It was primarily African countries and UN interfering. We probably gave weapons and intel to them, but not a lot more.
(except for that AC-130 gunship stike, but those sumbitches were 'alleged' al-qaida).
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Nov 19, 2008 - 08:08pm PT
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edit...I stand corrected
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 19, 2008 - 08:12pm PT
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Chris, if he presents pretty decent, informed points, I fail to see why he's untrustable. Is up now down?
And maybe you can provide evidence of his deceit before you personally accuse him.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 19, 2008 - 08:30pm PT
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This is why our media is clearly biased for people like 'pirates'. Read the first paragraph.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article5192674.ece
raiders seized two more ships but lost one of their own in an uneven firefight with the Indian Navy.
WTF? Am I the only one who senses the reporter 'sympythizes' with the poor 'raider'?
Bah!!!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 19, 2008 - 08:51pm PT
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what else is she supposed to say?
How about, "the raiders opened fire after failing to respond to a warships's legal request to stand down and be boarded. As a result the bold, yet foolish raiders were shreaded with miniguns that set off secondary explosions."
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MisterE
Trad climber
My Inner Nut
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Nov 19, 2008 - 09:35pm PT
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Spot the differences:
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 19, 2008 - 09:37pm PT
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cintune, that's bizarre. I can see how they create boomtowns with ranson cash, but to be so brazen about it...
I have a feeling Somalia is gonna get a Nato wake-up call. Do we even have ships sailing through there? It's always, Thai, Dutch, Saudi, Iranian, etc. Never mention of U.S. bound/flagged tankers.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Nov 19, 2008 - 09:45pm PT
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Somalian (and other) pirates are an interesting/brazen/troubling phenomena. Do any of them Ever, make off with the booty?
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
http://tinyurl.com/4oa5br
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Nov 19, 2008 - 10:25pm PT
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What happened was when the goverment could no longer protect the fishing, other countries fished out the region, so now, without a source of food or income...
They have enough explosives to blow the tanker and kill all 25 men, so they will probably get the US curency.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
http://tinyurl.com/4oa5br
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Nov 19, 2008 - 10:28pm PT
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What happened was when the goverment could no longer protect the fishing, other countries fished out the region, so now, without a source of food or income...
In fact, the "pirates" are using converted fishing boats to do the deed.
No weapons allowed for peace treaty purposes, fire hoses work, but not if you have a whole flotilla boarding from 8 different places.
They have enough explosives to blow the tanker and kill all 25 men, so they will probably get the US currency.
More of a mafia, Pirate is too good a word.
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Kupandamingi
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2008 - 11:06pm PT
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Just to be clear, there has not been a government in Somalia to protect Somalia's maritime resources since 1991 - even then it couldn't exert authority onshore, let alone offshore (as the Somali joke goes, Siad Barre - the last dictator - was the 'Mayor of Mogadishu'.
Those who took it upon themselves to tax foreign trawlers rapping the Somali coast in the early to mid 1990s were hardly interested in protecting it, just profiting from it (read warlords). Yes, out of work fishermen do assist in the attacks and as they bring a vital skill set to bear. However, these attacks are coordinated from land by higher ups with those launching RPGs and climbing the boats more likely to be former militia than fishermen.
The fact that foreign fishing fleets rob lobster and that European firms payed Somali warlords to dump hazardous waste in Somalia's coastal waters (and purportedly still do) aren't causes of the problem, but (as with piracy) a result - the externalities of going without a state for 17 years.
All of the complicated turns and twists aside (including whether you are convinced by the argument concerning U.S. involvement or not) - there is something interesting/brazen/troubling (as Jaybro suggests) about pirates operating on this scale in 2008. The fact that they are treated like heros when they come ashore has less to do about romanticism that it does the fact that they provide for their clansmen. The BBC article on life in a pirate town (el Maan) I posted earlier is pretty intriguing in this regard.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Boise
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Nov 20, 2008 - 10:19pm PT
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Couldn't they just drop some anvils over the side or something?
That'd show the little speedboat boys.....
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Nov 20, 2008 - 10:54pm PT
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Interesting thread. Piton Ron once told me he had an interest inpirates(but I think more of the type from the wayback machine of peg legs and hook arms and wind-powered ships). I wonder what his take is on the sea pirates of today.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 21, 2008 - 12:11am PT
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Coming late to the thread, but most of the ships are flag of convenience - typically Panama or Greece or such. Places with no real navies. There aren't that many developed countries that still have significant merchant navies.
As for defence - these vessels are huge, with tiny crews. The crews are busy already, and not trained in firearms use, let alone defending a large vessel, let alone armed with anything more than small arms. Very often, the vessels are boarded at night, when no one may notice.
Most important, if there was a firefight on a supertanker, I'd rather be somewhere far away when it happened. At least if it involved anything more than slingshots and pea shooters.
If I remember rightly, John McPhee wrote about small scale piracy on freighters off the northwest coast of South America in "Looking for a Ship". 25 years ago.
Armed patrols, plus cutting off the pirates at their bases, is the solution. If you can cut off their supplies, especially oil and gas, they're dead in the water.
Bumped - so as to be above the unnecessary thread started by she-with-ADHD.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Boise
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Nov 21, 2008 - 12:14am PT
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No anvils, then?
Damn. It worked for Bugs.....
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 21, 2008 - 01:27am PT
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Well, up here in Vancouver it's still Thursday night.
Anyway, so which does LEB have?
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