Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
klk
Trad climber
cali
|
|
Yeah, that's Arnold (bernd or Berndt-- I've seen both spellings). Never met him, but I've heard that he's a nice guy.
From yr udini cite:
A modern photo of Bernd Arnold on one of his first ascents . . .
First ascents by outsiders are rare here"
"Ein modernes Foto von Bernd Arnold bei einer Erstbegehung im Elbsandstein. Was passiert falls die rote Knotenschlinge rauskommt? Oder kann das nicht passieren weil ja die violette Knotenschlinge drunterliegt? Knotenschlingen, so weit das Auge reicht, wann kommt der nächste Haken? Sehr mutig das Ganze! Erstbegehungen von Nicht-Franken sind wohl eher selten..."
|
|
bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
http://www.saxony-switzerland.de/
Does this have to do with anything?
2.5 Benutzung der Ringe
Ringe dienen zur Sicherung des Kletterers. Sie dürfen nicht zur
Unterstützung der Kletterbewegung benutzt werden. Die Verwendung
von Hilfsmitteln, die zum Einhängen des Seils in den Ring dienen, gilt
als unsportlich. Wird die Kletterei am Ring unterbrochen, ist sie beim
Weitersteigen in der Kletterstellung aufzunehmen, in der sie
unterbrochen wurde. Ringe von benachbarten oder kreuzenden Wegen
dürfen benutzt werden, wenn damit keine wesentliche Abweichung vom
Wegverlauf verbunden ist.
|
|
klk
Trad climber
cali
|
|
It's just telling you how you are supposed to treat rings that are already in place. Do you have the link to the page? It may have more.
I gather that in some areas first ascents must be approved by a local committee-- portions of Elbsandstein are in a Nature Preserve --and climbing is not the only thing that is regulated or semi-regulated or just watched over closely by the locals. Again, I've not climbed on teh Czech side and don't read or speak Czech. You can get around there in German or even maybe w. English, but the recent published stuff tends to be in Czech.
|
|
dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
|
|
about the bolting rules - there was a great article in one of the issues of Alpinist where an old school Czech climber told the story of one of his favorite first ascents - "The Kalamarka Arete" was the name of the route and the story. They had a sidebar with a very detailed description of the bolting rules, including photos of all of the equipment.
My memory is that John is correct - if there is no stance from which to drill a bolt / ring, the leader pounds in a small chisel-looking thing, and hangs from that while drilling the hole for the full-size ring.
I'll look later to see which issue of Alpinist contained that article.
|
|
Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
Grossman,
There was also a piece in Climbing from '77-78 about Henry Barber climbing there, barefoot like the locals, expressing his awe about Bernd Arnold. Very cool piece.
I almost had a chance to climb there thru a climbing exchange sponsored by the AAC in 1986 I think. I had applied, hadn't heard anything and had a chance to got to Paris for a month to study French at Sorbonne while finishing up as an undergrad. Blew the last of my hard earned change getting there.
I fly home and find this envelope sitting in my room. It'd been sitting there since a few days after I left for Paris. The letter says I've been selected and I need to be in Prague in four weeks, or about two or three days after I first find the letter. My folks apparently didn't want to open my mail and so didn't have any way of telling me.
So there I am broke after a nice month in Paris, without any way of affording the plane ticket. I had to call Ad Carter, the guy who arranged the trip and let him know. Man was he pissed!
|
|
bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
Yes Henry told me when he climbed with Bernd Arnold, he would start a hole with a small bit and then switch to a larger bit and then hang off it while hammering the hole to completion - all the time using the same hole. He also was in awe I think...
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
|
|
I'm invoking my prerogative to bump this:
#1 Out of sympathy for Fat Dad
#2 It is Bedrich Smetana's birthday
#3 I am 1/4 Bohemian
#4 It is a gud thread
|
|
Jim Lawyer
climber
|
|
I was having dinner recently at the Ratskeller in Hohnstein, the small town where Bernd lives. As part of our routine, we were leafing though the guidebooks to pick out the next days climbs, when in walks Bernd Arnold with his entourage. Seeing that we're climbers, he comes right up to our table and, pretty soon, begins rattling off a tick list of must-do classics. I don't speak a word of german, but he's looking right at me and speaking so ernestly and enthusiastically. He eventually caught on that I was clueless -- perhaps I was smiling and nodding at the wrong moments -- so he racked his brain for the right english words..."ARM BAR", he said with a heavy accent.
I fancy myself a decent crack climber, but as anyone that's climbed cracks in the Elbsandstein can tell you, these parallel-sided cracks require advanced knot skills and a solo mentality. The words "arm bar", loosely translated, means no protection whatsoever.
After he left, I scratched that route off my list.
|
|
marde
climber
Germany
|
|
Does this have to do with anything?
2.5 Benutzung der Ringe
Ringe dienen zur Sicherung des Kletterers. Sie dürfen nicht zur
Unterstützung der Kletterbewegung benutzt werden. Die Verwendung
von Hilfsmitteln, die zum Einhängen des Seils in den Ring dienen, gilt
als unsportlich. Wird die Kletterei am Ring unterbrochen, ist sie beim
Weitersteigen in der Kletterstellung aufzunehmen, in der sie
unterbrochen wurde. Ringe von benachbarten oder kreuzenden Wegen
dürfen benutzt werden, wenn damit keine wesentliche Abweichung vom
Wegverlauf verbunden ist.
I just translated this for you:
Use of ringbolts
Rings are only to be used for protection of the climber. You are not allowed to use them for aiding the climbing moves. The use of devices that help you clipping the rope into the ringbolt is considered poor style. If you rest on a ringbolt you have to continue in the same position as you were in before.
Ringbolts of neighboring or crossing routes can be used if it means you don't really leave the original route.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 28, 2009 - 08:53pm PT
|
Here is an interesting historical tidbit.
When Fritz Wiessner was faced with a long section of difficult 5.8 offwidth during the first roped ascent of the Devil's Tower, he brought along some babyheads in hopes of getting some protection! Made them up on the spot. No mention of whether he used them in any way.
Fritz, William House and Lawrence Coveney made the first roped ascent on June 28, 1937.
|
|
MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
|
|
You-wish-you-were-this-tough bump
|
|
Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
|
|
bump for the real deal!
|
|
Lasti
Trad climber
Budapest
|
|
Hey JB, here's a little info on the bolting situation, taken from the Climbing Regulations of the Sächsischer (sounds like sexy Cher?) Bergsteiger Bund.
Given the love of passive voice in the beautiful German tounge and my time restraints (though this is better than working - then again, what isn't?) some sentences seem a bit botched, but I guess you'll get your head around that.
Detailed rules are as follows:
(ATTENTION READER: The following rules and restrictions must be read aloud, if possible at full volume, preferably in a black leather jacket, if feasible with wild hand gestures involving truncheon-waving and, quite frankly, your best mad German scientist / Gestapo officer accent is a prerequisite for full enjoyment.)
3.1 All climbers have a right to establish a new route. To stake a claim, you have to report your attempt and mark the project with a sling in a Ringbolt or some other appropriate manner. Your claim to the route lasts for three years after the first attempt. If someone succeeds on the route before the three years is up, the FA shall not be recognized.
3.2 Reporting of projects is to be done within 4 weeks of the first attempt to the local Fachkommission.
3.3 Top-rope attempts, rap inspection and any other unsportsmanlike behaviour is not allowed during an FA.
3.4 No hangdogging, all attempts must start from the ground. As a ground rule all routes should finish at the summit. The character and line of other routes may not be altered in any way for the sake of the new route. Routes should follow a natural line and adapt to the rock. Generosity is a very important trait, especially with variants. Combinations of older routes will not be recognized as new routes. Smaller variations will not be recognized as new routes, but may be shown in the guidebook. The first ascensionist is responsible for proper protection of the route. When no natural protection is to be had, rings should be placed. The rings have to be accessible by means of climbing the route from the ground, i.e. placement of rings from traverses, abseil etc. is not allowed.
(The Commentary goes into great detail about the distance needed between two routes, giving a minimum of two meters (six feet) but calling for the use of common sense in order to make sure that new routes are „separate lines” and also to prevent the faint-hearted from using the holds and more importantly the rings in a nearby route.)
3.5 While drilling a hole you either: do it form a stance, use a bit of „seilschling” (basically either knot-chock, thread or slung over some feature), use a skyhook or use the hole you are drilling. You can also drill a ring from „unterstütz”, standing on top of each other. Everything else is forbidden (nuts, cams, whatever). Reaching the ring and clipping it must be possible from the route. Rings must be placed in a way that a minimal number of rings with a maximum distance between them are used for sufficient protection. A minimum distance is three meters/9 feet (very rarely, e.g. in cases where there is a danger of decking on a ledge or something like that, you can go closer). Nevertheless, a distance of at least 5 meters/15 feet is recommended. You should keep these distances from the rings of other routes as well, if your route crosses, merges or branches off one of these. No changes may be made in the older routes rings. If you branch off of an existing route, a ring may be authorised by the Fachkommission only if it does not change the character of the climb. If a ring could only be partially placed, it is allowed to abseil to it after the FA and fix the ring. All holes that were drilled but did not eventually have a ring driven into must be closed immediately (this means the little hole drilled for support while drilling and those of replaced rings).
3.6 The position of rings may be changed only if you change the line, or your claim to the line expires and another climber does the FA. When placing a ring elsewhere you can not use the old ring for protection, you have to abide the original rules.
3.7 The first ascensionist can place additional rings within 4 weeks of the FA if necessary, always respecting the rules laid down in 3.5. The local Fachkommission also has the right to place rings (following consultation with the FAist) if the in-situ rings do not provide sufficient safety.
I guess that just about wraps it up. Having seen the rules, it is important to note that all the minimum-distance, no changing of lines and other traditionalist business is not at all taken lightly by our German Bergbrüdern. I've seen men with 3-meter lengths of cord inspecting routes that were suspect. I've read minutes of meetings of Fachkommission (once again shouted, with hand held forward, or upward in a fist to be less obvious) where the members got into heated debate whether a ring on an old route should be placed 12 inches to the left or right beacause of the new route starting from that point. All membersinvolved in the debate inspected the routes and the ring in question beforehand, not leaving any place for hearsay and other influences. It was quite obvious, that these rules are taken very, very sincerely.
For the inquiring Tacoan:
http://www.bergsteigerbund.de/kletterregeln.htm
Berg Heil!
Lasti
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2009 - 11:39am PT
|
Great clarification, Lasti! Thanks for posting up the concensus FA and drilling requirements. Nice level playing field for everybody.
|
|
Chris2
Trad climber
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2009 - 02:39pm PT
|
No metal protection only knotted rope.
No chalk.
|
|
Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2009 - 04:15pm PT
|
Stevie, here is that nice two page photo, merged:
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2009 - 09:03pm PT
|
Nice work Peter! My copy has a bit of water damage to boot.
|
|
Lasti
Trad climber
Budapest
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2009 - 04:28pm PT
|
Yeah Steve, the playing field is level but the level of play is out of the field.
I've found that you can get a good working-over from routes literally a hundred years old. Soaring chimneys climbed in 1902 that can make a grown man cry are always a favorite, but these people climbed hard when 'old school' was just 'school'.
Kuniskante was climbed in 1921 and is rated VIIIb or about 5.10d. Rostkante in 1922, same rating. Taking into account that these routes have no more than 2-3 pieces of pro in 70-80 feet, and that these were all placed on lead... Let's just say them nice aretes still give you the FULL experience.
Ahh, sandstone. The feel, the forms, the magic, the love, the nausea.
Lasti
|
|
Michael Hjorth
Trad climber
Copenhagen, Denmark
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2009 - 05:37pm PT
|
In 1993 I visited the similar towers near Dresden in former DDR/East Germany. Rules are more or less the same as in the Czech area. And the guidebook is filled with rules of what to do - and especially not to do.
Fx
Ringbolt should be at least 3 m apart, and if more than three rings are placed, there should be at least 7,5 meter between first and third.
Friends, stoppers and chalk are not allowed.
Only independent towers are allowed to be climbed. Walls up to plateaus accesible by nonclimbers are restricted for climbing.
You MUST sign up in the summit registry/Gipfelbuch upon each climb and always ands only with Routename/Surname/First name/Club affilation. You are NOT allowed to make drawings in the books.
You MUST salute other climbers present on the Gipfel with a "Berg Heil!". (Even if it's the third time you meet them that morning...)
We were not specially brave, and didn't do much. And we didn't have much succes (or faith...?) in the Knotenschlinge. Mainly because we forgot the very important tool, the "Spatel". This is a wooden stick (basically a hammer-shaft) used to place and knock the knot into position. Without it the rough sandstone prevents the knot from sliding in properly.
Bob Rosendal on "Direktes Klavier", 7b. 2 bolts:
Being proud of our knotted sling (before trying it):
Berg Heil!
Michael
|
|
Lasti
Trad climber
Budapest
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2009 - 05:49pm PT
|
I think I wet my pants there just a little Michael!
Direktes Klavier is one of my absolute favorite routes in Bielatal. First day when we climbed there, we did Löschnerwand, the cool dual crack up a ramp for five point easy to the left. All the time I was eyeing that perfect swath of stone to the right of me with the two shiny rings...
After a few days and a few climbs I started up it. And it was just as I imagined. Delicate climbing up the endless ripples all the way. Oh my.
Thanks for the memories.
Lasti
p.s.
The Czechs just relaxed their no chalk rules...
http://planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=36682
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!