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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 23, 2008 - 06:37pm PT
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Let me spell it out to you Skip.
You said that Obama wants to FORCE you to live a certain way.
That means that if I vote for him, then I am FORCING you to live a certain way.
Yet you claim that your vote for McCain ISN'T forcing me to live by what you want.
Can you not see how silly that is?
If my vote forces you to live a certain way, then the same applies to your vote.
( you aren't my pet project, that is your own fear because I speak so directly to you )
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Aug 23, 2008 - 06:41pm PT
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No he can not see how silly that is. Seriously. You are arguing with a guy who pretty much uses a double standard as the basis for everything. McCain was acquitted in the Keating 5 scandal so that's a moot point and yet Obama wasn't indited nor incriminated in the much smaller Rezko incident and yet this is apparently a HUGE deal.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 23, 2008 - 06:53pm PT
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Okay skip,
You get your vote, I get mine.
You say Obama will force you to live a certain way.
I say McCain will force me and mine to live a certain way.
You say this force makes Obama an elitist. That must therefore mean that McCain is also an elitist. ( I happen to think they both are but not for the spurious reason that they are forcing any of us to live a certain way, it goes much deeper then that )
You are correct in saying that Obama will in a sense force something on you, but please try to see that so will McCain and so has Bush. ( a legacy of war and torture and higher national dept with a failing economy just to name a few things forced on me and mine )
You say you are fair, then be fair.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 23, 2008 - 07:26pm PT
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elitism n.
1. The advocacy or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a system or society.
2. The attitude or behaviour of a person or group who regard themselves as belonging to an elite.
 Oxford Canadian Dictionary
Sounds pretty much what the Republicans usually practice, and often preach. Democrats sometimes too, but less so.
The Republicans often out-Herod Herod when making spurious allegations, but even Karl Rove didn't invent the big lie.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 23, 2008 - 07:31pm PT
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What do I want you to do?
I want you to apply the same standard to McCain that you apply to Obama. I also want you to apply it to George Bush.
McCain is for torture. This means that if you vote for him, you are condoning torture. If he wins because of your vote, then America will continue to condone torture.
If you are okay with that, then fine.
But try to see that this means that you are forcing me to accept torture as the American way. I will not accept that and therefore I will continue to be against McCain until he stops accepting torture as okay and stops accepting war as a solution.
As long as you vote for him, you are in part responsible for what he does just as you are responsible for what George Bush has done. Since you have not once spoken out against what George Bush has done, then this means you condone it and this make you responsible for his behavior.
You ask me to man up, well I do the same to you. Take responsibility for your actions. America is now a nation that tortures people thanks to those who voted for George Bush and refuse to do anything to stop him.
Your responsibilities don't end when your vote.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 23, 2008 - 08:53pm PT
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Skip, You started the notion that Obama wanted to force people to live a certain way.
If you can't see that the same holds true for McCain, then you are blind?
Plus you ignore all the times I have lambasted Democrats and Its not the Democrats who have been in power for most of the last 7 years.
But whatever. Its not me who can't see the value of debate. Its you that cries that I am picking on you.
Oh, and I never said that one is completely responsible for who one votes for. I said that they hold partial responsibility. Ones responsibility doesn't end after one votes. That is why I have called for impeachment of George Bush.
.....
Reread my posts. It appears you haven't understood a single thing that I have said.
And try again on the post where you said that perhaps you shouldn't have called Obama an elitist but instead you should have said he acts like one. Those are the same thing.
Just debating dude.
Just answer one question and I will leave you alone.
Can you see that if you say that Obama wants to force a way of life on us, then the same holds true for McCain?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Aug 23, 2008 - 09:00pm PT
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Our second favorite blindly moronic republican wrote a lot of crap, but failed to respond to this:
"McCain is for torture."
Yes, he voted for it, after being against it. NEVERMIND that our country has said that waterboarding IS torture, no doubt about it, for about 100 years.
"This means that if you vote for him, you are condoning torture."
Pretty much so. You KNOW McCain supports the Bush torture plan, he voted for it. A vote for McCain is a vote for torture. IF you can explain how it is not, please do it now.
"If he wins because of your vote, then America will continue to condone torture."
Actually, all of America does not support torture, but apparently many do. A shocking number seem to think it's OK, which is disgusting. These people don't seem to listen to experts (real experts, with experiences and training, unlike the folks cheney/bush listened to), they just like to think that torture works. Something decent is lacking in those people.
Nonetheless, by electing a president who condones torture, America WILL seem to condone torture as well.
THEN that same idiot republican wrote:
"As a Republican I don't by into the crap you are saying that just because my President is doing something then that somehow defines me in any way."
Hmmm, but you are going to vote for another one who is willing to continue doing the deplorable things the current one is doing.
That defines you quite well as a supporter of torture.
Let's be clear about this:
Supporting Bush and supporting McCain is supporting torture. Cause that's what they do, what they want to do, and what they want to keep doing.
Now, you really can't argue on a major point like this that you are having a "hate the sin, love the sinner" moment. You are voting for the guy for Pete's sake. That means you approve of him and his plans.
IF you don't support torture, how can you support these guys who do?
Maybe you don't think torture is that big a deal.
Maybe you don't really believe it happened.
I wonder...
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 23, 2008 - 09:05pm PT
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Although he's been ignoring me, I was hoping that skip might have something useful to say about the parties' and candidates' positions on important issues. The economy. What to do in Iraq and Afghanistan. The economy. Upholding the constitution. U.S. foreign policy, and the rise of other countries and regions. Universal medical care. The economy. Education. The importance of things like public goods, and uniting the country. The economy.
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Aug 23, 2008 - 09:13pm PT
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The Economy is not something McCain knows alot about. But don't worry he has TRUSTWORTHY people like Sen. Phil Gramm to help him out!
take care
dave
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Aug 23, 2008 - 09:29pm PT
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Maybe not skip, but McCain voting for torture DOES make it true.
Or, do you deny that he did that?
OR, do you deny that waterboarding is torture?
Hint: you're way out on a limb.
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toomey
climber
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Aug 23, 2008 - 09:44pm PT
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f*#k, skippity, how many times can you possibly say "funneled $14,000,000" in one thread on a climbers site? Keep saying it again and again and again and again and again and again and again. We never get tired of it! Keep trying!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Aug 23, 2008 - 09:48pm PT
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About those jets into the WTC-- torture would not have stopped it. BUT, competence probably would have.
Check it out, don't take my word for it. The gov knew something was up. They ignored some of it, and denied a request to seize a laptop that had lots of info about the 9/11 plan. They 'lost track' of two Al Quaida thugs who had a lot to do with 9/11, after shadowing them to an Al Quaida meeting in Pakistan.
You can look it up.
So, to recap, torture bad, competence good.
Torture NOT something that makes up for competence.
One more thing, it's not about them, it's about US. Torture is a big deal. We never condoned it before. And if you think it was only a little waterboarding, look into the farming out of suspects to countries that do all sorts of hideous things. Bush did that. Used the CIA to do it too.
Again, it's a matter of record, you can look it up.
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toomey
climber
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Aug 23, 2008 - 09:50pm PT
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skippity says: just about every other country in the world does far worse than "water-boarding a few terrorists"
You just revealed you really don't have a clue what you are talking about. You are full of fear and hve let it run away with what principles or reason you might used to have otherwise had. your sad, brother. sad.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Aug 23, 2008 - 09:55pm PT
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About those jets into the WTC-- torture would not have stopped it. BUT, competence probably would have.
Check it out, don't take my word for it. The gov knew something was up. They ignored some of it, and denied a request to seize a laptop that had lots of info about the 9/11 plan. They 'lost track' of two Al Quaida thugs who had a lot to do with 9/11, after shadowing them to an Al Quaida meeting in Pakistan.
You can look it up.
So, to recap, torture bad, competence good.
Torture NOT something that makes up for competence.
One more thing, it's not about them, it's about US. Torture is a big deal. We never condoned it before. And if you think it was only a little waterboarding, look into the farming out of suspects to countries that do all sorts of hideous things. Bush did that. Used the CIA to do it too.
Again, it's a matter of record, you can look it up.
Vanity bump.
And it's not that just about every other country does worse, which is not true BTW, it's that We shouldn't do it, and WE shouldn't be farming out our torture victims to those countries that do do worse, which Bush did allow.
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toomey
climber
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Aug 23, 2008 - 09:57pm PT
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funny, skippity-doo. I was thinking same about you. but you have to be careful, again, your using "the rest of the world does it, so we should" premis. If you do that, then we should socialize our health care. bet you won't feel that what the rest of the world does has anything to do with what we shoud do then, would you?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Aug 23, 2008 - 09:59pm PT
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This torture is OK thing is getting more than annoying.
IF torture is so great, WHY aren't the countries that are KNOWN to use it doing just fabulously?
Let's see, Pakistan, Sudan, Egypt, wow, THOSE are some counties the whole world looks up to and respects, and man oh man, they sure are hotbeds of world influence and well being for their citizens.
Oh yeah, torture-- it makes a country great.
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Mimi
climber
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Aug 23, 2008 - 10:07pm PT
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Hello Kurt. Hope all is well. I have done my best to stay off of these poli threads, but since we're such good friends from way back, I wanted to toss in my buck o' five.
I just read your first post and didn't have time to read any of the others. I venture to guess that by the time O is finished with his run, if all goes well, he'll be worth way more than ole man McC. We should compare the wealth gained over years of service. History will tell and since this business is mostly public knowledge, we'll have to wait and see.
Otherwise, we can't ignore that O has had a pretty good run to date and is no closer to the street than McC unless you figure that Rev W was in tune and kept O in tune. Once you get to the Beltway, you don't have time to stay connected; running this country has got to be like herding cats. Let's just say O didn't exactly work his way up the ladder. And anyone living in IL can attest what a whacked state that place has become from a taxation standpoint. Unless you're a Socialist that is.
For crying out loud, the guy has only been in office a few years on both fronts, state and federal. I prefer McC's track record over O's. May the best poli win. I must say I wasn't keen on Biden being the VP pick. A strong candidate to be sure. He will definitely help the effort. What was the reason he was vetted out of the Pres race last time? I guess that issue isn't important anymore.
Cheers!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 23, 2008 - 10:29pm PT
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More questions for skip to ignore. What about the parties' and candidates' positions on growing economic inequality, and the increasing precariousness of the middle classes? How about racial inequality and prejudice? Development in the third world? Climate change?
Mimi has it right - neither candidate is exactly working class or blue collar, although Obama does have a somewhat humbler background.
Biden's introduction of Obama as "Barack America" was rather witty.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Aug 23, 2008 - 10:33pm PT
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Biden plagiarized something for one of his speeches.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Aug 23, 2008 - 10:59pm PT
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"Biden plagiarized something for one of his speeches. "
So has everyone. It's pretty hard to say something original when all our elections are about the same ol' sh#t. You have any idea how many Republicans are "running AGAINST Congress, not for it" this year? How many Democrats are making health care and the economy their priority?
Also, since when are we looking to elect Jesus? I mean for f*#k's sake. We expect people to be perfect to run for office and then we spend the rest of the time taking a microscope to every aspect of their lives. And if they are too clean we look at the people close to them and then try to paint the candidate with the same brush. It's pathetic.
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