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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 20, 2008 - 02:01pm PT
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"Climbing puts mortal injury in your face. It requires a unique type to operate there - ie, not the type that gets married in their 20's and stays married until death." JLP
Again, all the couples I mentioned belong in that category and I could laundry list many more, many of them from a period in which the total population of climbers was remarkably small. So far as where the line between dedication and compulsion enter in, who knows? But despite its dangers, climbing doesn't appear to differ from other activities I've (somewhat randomly) referenced.
I don't doubt your personal experience. But it is partly an artifact of a particular time and place. If you belong to the standard ST demographic (i.e., white working or middle class male, began climbing in the 70s or '80s), you entered the sport at what was probably the absolute nadir of women's involvement. (The peak, as a percentage of total, was probably the 1920s.)
I didn't see significant numbers of women entering the sport until the gym revolution of the last fifteen years. A demographer would not expect that change to register for probably another ten years. My guess is that long-term climbing/romantic relationships in North America will be much more common in fifteen years (as they already are in Europe, where the sport is more mainstream.)
Against that, we have the increasing general incidence of divorce and serial monogamy, so I don't want to predict a return to the glory decades of climbing marriages in the early-middle 20th century.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Aug 20, 2008 - 02:19pm PT
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I met my wife climbing, we're going on 15 years of marriage, oh and we met and married in our mid 20's.
Climbing and relationships are two entirely different subjects, and one doesn't help or hinder the other.
The fact that some climbers can't make relationships work reflects on their selfishness and inability to work together on a relationship. It's not because they climb.
The fact that other couples are happily married reflects on their ability to work together as a couple, and it just so happens they climb.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 20, 2008 - 03:20pm PT
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Just want to clarify, as I am answering the original post:
1) The couples of which I speak are capable of challenging each other as climbers. ie, similar experience and abilities. ie, take this scary pitch, no you take this scary pitch. I'm talking about forced bivies together on a route both had an extreme desire to climb, scrogging in a portalede on El Cap, shitting in the same bag and liking it - someone who can do everything your best same-sex partner can do. I'm talking about the Holy Grail of climbing and relationships - that perfect partner in climbing and life. I don't care about a pair who "happen to climb" and spend their time on 5.easy - that's dimestore material. I don't care either about a couple where there is a significant difference in abilities - that's even cheaper. I'm talking about independent hard climbers who become an equal couple - that's the relationship I always hear people talking about and that's the one I pulled out of the words in the OP.
2) Citing so and so (possibly famous) climber you've never met and of whome you've never had first hand details of their relationship is absolutely silly. I've had first hand experiences spanning several women over many years and I have many friends who have experienced similar. Tell me about yours and what it's like. Are you still together? Still do many mind bending climbs together - near the top of both of your similar abilities? I've found that it makes life absolutely crazy and ungrounded. Some of the best years of my life, though. It just doesn't last.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Aug 20, 2008 - 04:07pm PT
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It's rare in my experience to find someone who is the type of climber that JLP describes that doesn't chafe at being the weaker partner, even when the inequality is relatively small. And there's always some degree of inequality.
But that doesn't mean that the stronger partner isn't also made more attractive by their skills and shared passion.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 20, 2008 - 04:13pm PT
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"It's rare in my experience to find someone who is the type of climber that JLP describes that doesn't chafe at being the weaker partner, even when the inequality is relatively small. And there's always some degree of inequality."
Yes, that is one of the problems I've experienced - the competition and insecurity found in hard climber personalities doesn't add a lot to the intimacy required in a stable relationship. Yes, there is always some inequality, but we are both talking about when it is a small one.
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quartziteflight
climber
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Aug 20, 2008 - 04:25pm PT
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The conns gave up climbing for caving..
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Aug 20, 2008 - 05:09pm PT
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Yeah JLP, apparently you don't go to the obvious places.
You just 'spoke' with melisa, she and J, are one of these couples. Are you equivicating, by saying both of the pair have to climb at Exactly the same level?
I think Liz Robbins was the first woman to ascend RNWF of halfdome, guess that is meaningless.
Ever met;
steve and Chrisianne?
Jay and Kitty?
Charlie and Christine (RIP)?
the Bokelands (sp)?
Bird and (Dave?)
The Florines?
Werner and Merry?
Gabe and Tiare?
Gregor and Erica?
the list goes on forever,
yes it's a hard thing to achieve, what meaningful relationship isn't?
You contention was that it doesn't happen, open your eyes!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 20, 2008 - 05:31pm PT
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I've met many of those couples and frankly I can't post things about a few of them. Again, do you yourself really know what it's like to be one of these people? Have you yourself been in such a climbing relationship? What was it like? Aren't you single, anyway? I haven't kept track of all your posts. I'm not saying these kinds of relationships don't exist, I'm just saying they are very rare, and when they do exist, the ones I've come to know are often shakey at best. BTW, did Liz lead many pitches on Half Dome? There is a huge ability gap in many of your examples, and I think that's a key to the discussion. A hard climber type, IMO, is best matched with someone who is no challenge or threat to the esteem and identity a dedicated hard climber often gains and needs from climbing. A hard climbing nearly equal and attractive partner could greatly amplify that esteem and identity - but only in their dreams. The reality of climber personalities and relationships is just different. I know I'm speaking in sweeping generalities only because it's a complex issue, but the reality I've found basically distills to the same.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Aug 20, 2008 - 05:45pm PT
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No, like you, I'm not in one of those relationships; relevance? Our tough luck. You said it doesn't happen, when obviously it does. Working on it....
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 20, 2008 - 05:50pm PT
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JLP: "I'm speaking in sweeping generalities only because it's a complex issue"
That's not the recommended approach.
I liked that one pithy remark you made, earlier in the thread, a lot better: "Find someone who will put up with your sh#t. That's the One. When you find that person, return the favor by learning to put up with their sh#t. You have now found true love."
I'd just run with that one.
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CrackedMeUp
Social climber
Santa Fe
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Aug 20, 2008 - 05:56pm PT
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Climbing relationships are the same as other f*#ked situations...f*#ked.
Mel
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Aug 20, 2008 - 05:57pm PT
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I agree w/ plenty of what both Jaybro and JLP are saying, even though you've got opposite POV to a large degree, b/c I think it sort of works both ways.
The thing that is shared equally or nearly equally between many on Jaybro's list is desire and commitment. The competition is often about whose vision for the experience sought together wins out.
I've personally never met a couple where both partners were equally likely to share all manner of sickness on the rock, although I don't doubt their existance. Physically and mentally, one usually ends up climbing plenty harder on the whole even if the other owns the hardest redpoint. This appears to be true for even many of the elite power-couples in the magazines.
I've been on long routes w/ J where I had scarey leads, endured a couple of summit bivies, crammed his warm brown bag in the dry sack, and so on...but I've never taken a lead from him b/c he didn't feel up to it, and barring illness or injury, I probably never will.
Going after one of my big goals often means that, even though we're both happy to be out climbing, his big goal is waiting for another day...and vice versa. Sometimes we end up sacrificing when what we really want to do is be selfish, and that's when we fight over stupid stuff...and it's time go climb w/ one of our buddies who doesn't have a stake in whether or not our front lawn got mowed this month.
Melissa...working on this for 6.5 years for better and for worse...and continuing to work towards the better...and sure that there will also be some more worse...but finding that it gets easier as I climb harder and care less about how hard I do or don't climb. :-)
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Anastasia
climber
Not there
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Aug 20, 2008 - 06:10pm PT
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Tifanny Levine and Jason Campbell are doing well...
I don't know much. Except as a female climber that has dated both climbers and non-climbers...
The tendency to fail was not based on climbing, it was based on how we as a couple operated as human beings. In order for it to work we need to deal with ourselves and others in responsible manner. We need to own our mistakes and work to improve ourselves. We need to communicate, spend time together and remember that the common goal is to be best friends, not competitive enemies. We also need to be forgiving of the imperfections and allow everyday to be a new beginning.
Sounds easy?
Try it...
Now throw in illness, money problems, children and see if it gets easier. In the end it is all about how much you are willing to give of yourself to have the wealth of much more.
(Climbing is not the factor, it is about the people involved.)
AF
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Aug 20, 2008 - 07:04pm PT
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If ones view is that climbing will always be the most important thing in life, and you want a relationship with someone that also holds that view, and you will both climb at the same level, then you'll be very disapointed as that is simply an unrealistic pov on life.
We all grow and our outlook on life changes, what we put the majority of our focus and energy into changes.
No I can't currently crank 5.11's. I don't climb every weekend. I guess my view doesn't count. I have climbed more this past year then in the past decade, and I find climbing is more meaningful to me today then it was when my focus was myself and how, what where and when I climbed. I have the broader view on life, climbing and relationships.
I may be in my mid 40's when I finally make it up the Salathe vs. my goal to climb it in my mid 20's. I might be climbing it as a father/son trip vs. husband wife. I've also set the goal of a family ascent of the lotus flower tower.
If your happy with your spouse, or gf/bf, happy with your climbing and get along with others, you've realized what really matters in life. Thats the 5.15 crux that few seem to crank.
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yosguns
climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 20, 2008 - 07:21pm PT
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You've all made some really insightful comments about the challenges of being a hard climber type personality in general...not just in a relationship.
I take myself waaaay too seriously, not only in climbing. I have some partners who have asked why it can't just be fun. But, I've kind of accepted the fact that if someone says they climb ONLY for fun and relaxation, it's at least partially false...or they're in a completely different place mentally...or they do a different type of climbing than I do (probably a combination of all three if that's possible).
There's also this important aspect of improving as a climber for me right now, which requires climbing with different partners. So, perhaps the ebb and flow of climbing with the significant other is just all part of a greater learning process, one that lends itself to pulling away from comfortable belayers and then rejoining them later with new knowledge and confidence.
Isn't this kind of how it is with everything?
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yosguns
climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 20, 2008 - 07:38pm PT
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Yeah...I added an edit...that for me at this point, improving required climbing with different partners.
I added the for me at this point...because, well, that's where I am right now.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Aug 20, 2008 - 08:02pm PT
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Fascinating thread, all! Even those I don't agree with.
I've been all over the place with this.
I was married for 18yrs, we were together for 24. Many of you know the woman. She loved my wierdo climbing friends and has told me in the last month, how much she misses 'debating' with Several of you. She was into climbing only in an on and off again way. I think she 'get's' climbing and relates it to passions of her own. Our eventual breakup had nothing what so ever to do with climbing.
I think that keeping a relationship going is tough. If you're both climbers, the further complications are negligble and fractal to the main task at hand. kinda like voting for the same or different parties...
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Aug 20, 2008 - 08:05pm PT
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LOL...I couldn't love a republican! Actually, I love lots of republicans, but not in that way. ;-)
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Aug 20, 2008 - 08:25pm PT
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I'm with you, Melissa! Though, as a purely hypothetical exercise, having no relation to anyones', especially our own disparate, personnel/ romantic lives, could you have a, say, best friend, or an amorata, say who voted for Reagan? Even if they later, say, (again purely hypothetically) became socialist, atheists, or perhaps, left wing seekers, along a different, possibly, tantric, path? JUST ASKING...
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Aug 20, 2008 - 08:30pm PT
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I try not to begrudge folks their past if it involves the types of spots that leopards can change.
I guess politics and religion are fundemental compatability issues for some and non-issues for others.
And shared climbing experiences of a certain flavor are make-or-break for some, and a side bar to the "real" issues for others.
It's been fun chatting about it though.
I've had an office again for less than a week, and look at my pathetic bandwidth! :-( Time to go find my mate for some plastic pulling followed up by salad eating. Some things almost always work out just right.
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