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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"Maybe some alterations to that ethic would be more universally acceptable. "
I wonder which universe?
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Good point, Karl.
Nerd alert.
The "rules" agreed to by the largest set of people apply. That is what I meant by "more universal".
Somewhere between an anarchical approach, and a tyrannical approach may lie some democratic common ground.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"The "rules" agreed to by the largest set of people apply. That is what I meant by "more universal".
Somewhere between an anarchical approach, and a tyrannical approach may lie some democratic common ground. "
TIG, I don't entirely disagree with all of your rules. There's a lot of gray area and individual cases out there. How do climbers go from a culture where inclusion depends on knowing the nuances and navigating just how far to push the limits, and predefined limits.
I'm listening to a an audiobook in the inquisition. Seems like there used to be a universe where the people, church and state almost universally agreed that burning at the state was proper remedy for heretics who wouldn't renounce their beliefs.
Peace
Karl
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Karl, that burning stake thing falls under the "sh*t happens" rule.
"The Black Swan" is an interesting read. Nobody can predict what happens in most of the world. Ironically, in many cases, the "experts" are often the worst at predictions, and the surest that they are correct.
Harding would not have predicted the stopper (or he would have invented it). We can no more predict how things might change in the future. We can guess that the number of climbers will continue to grow. Then again, it might be outlawed entirely. (It is against the law to climb in NJ State Parks without filling out a waiver. That is new. It used to be just plain illegal, after it was completely legal.)
It does seem that we can confidently predict that things will change, but just not how.
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jstan
climber
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Rather a while ago Fritz Wiessner was trying his best to get everyone to go over and climb in Dresden. It is a very soft sandstone, I understand, and back in the early 1900's the climbers there were into climbing without shoes as this was less damaging to the rock and there was strict regulation as regards artificial fixed protection. Apparently it was pretty hairy. You can find links and descriptions easily so I won't babble on further.
What's happening here and now, is people are talking calmly about what we want the future to be like. We have the technology to get rid of all the Dresdens and gain another one huindred or two hundred thousand "classic" routes or we can have areas or even parts of areas where we think, "I'll have to get my sh*t together before I go there." Or even, "No one has managed to get up that mother. Holy moly!"
It is simply a choice. Posters in this thread realize no one of us outweighs any other person and are accepting of the need to provide room for all. If I were asked what is by far the most important route done in the past year I would have to say, "Ron's Road to Hell thread."
The Gunby trip report is right behind it though. If you have your head on straight there is any amount of fun you want up there.
That's what we all want.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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let's all go to Dresden. How nutty are stuffed knots for protection!!!!
kwazy!
Party in Dresden 2009?
I'm sure Todd G has a guidebook.
oh, snap, just realized, the person who I would want to climb with most (see other thread) is Bernd Arnold!!!!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2008 - 01:33pm PT
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What's this "Ron's" shlt??!
Why do I have to get saddled with the blame?
I really DO think the question is worth asking, and can't help but note that those who seem most inclined to view it as the road to Hell tend to be those that are pot committed to their school and don't wish to see their accomplishments crowded upon.
Perfectly understandable human nature, but is it reasonable to allow elitism to dictate what the hordes climb upon? Don't they get a vote?
I've put up some of my best routes solo. Would it then be reasonable for me to claim that, having set the bar at that level, any more new routes in that area should be put up solo or not at all?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Every bolt speaks for itself. The roads being paved with them speak to a 'tyranny of democracy' in a brave new world where risk is an unacceptable abberation to be collectively eliminated rather than individually managed. Climbing was not preempted to the shadowy status of "adventure climbing" because the vast majority of climbers are better, stronger, smarter, or braver - it has been cast into this categorical cage like a 'dangerous' zoo animal so that people might safely 'admire' the wild from behind the railing.
All the rest is a drive towards climbing as risk-free entertainment and maybe a little candor from the other side would be in order relative to honestly acknowledging that is the real utility of the vast majority of the bolts being placed today. That an assured intact return to our 'normal' selves and families is the priority today because we have collectively 'grown up' and cast off the clearly selfish ways of our youths. I personally find it all very convenient.
And frankly, I also find the introduction of the higher purpose and value of marriage and parenting into the discussion a bit disconcerting - it's almost as if [aging] climbers collectively slapped themselves on the forehead and discovered they have responsibilities. And I'm not sure which is more disconcerting - the simple act of this discovery, that apparently it's a new idea to many, or that FAs are now a family planning matter because of it.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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"So my question is this;
is the "trad only" school of thought noble or merely selfish?"
Neither. They are both just opinions. Something past generations of climbers who frequent the internet have an endless supply of.
Thank whatever deity you worship that todays climbers ignore old fools and actually are more interested in climbing than talking about it. Bolts or no bolts, its still just as cool as it ever was...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Except the vast majority of it today is wholly bolt dependent so how 'cool' that is remains a matter of [endless] opinion.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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"Except the vast majority of it today is wholly bolt dependent so how 'cool' that is remains a matter of [endless] opinion."
You are delusional. Or, maybe things are really that f*#ked up in the pacific northwest?! Is every crag and crack up there bolted?
Sounds like time for a roadtrip either way.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Just got back from climbing at Eldo last weekend, thanks.
Delusional? Not at all - no one has the real stats - but I'd guess that 80-85% of the people who put on a harness to rock climb this weekend were climbing bolted routes and that that is the case every day in the US. I'd say just the opposite - you're in denial.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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A rumble in the park
the grus and the raps
El Cap Bridge
who's gonna win?
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Not in denial. I am in the "I dont give a sh#t how others climb" category. Why get your panties all in a bunch over something that doesnt affect you? Choose a crack line and enjoy. Cheers
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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If I wore panties and those bolts didn't affect me then I would. As it is though...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2008 - 04:20pm PT
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At least the majority agree that bolted cracks SUCK!
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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High altitude drop. $10,000.
Landing on the peak, priceless!
Getting down alive, still a gamble.
Extremely exposed and often hit directly by the Jet wind - the summit of Everest is the windiest place on Earth. The highest forecasted wind speed during our research period (2 latest years), was 78 m/s (175miles/hour) on Feb 6, 2004. This is well above the 156 miles/hour threshold for a Category 5 Hurricane.
Kick-ass winter
But it’s not the maximum wind speed that makes Everest summit extremely windy, it’s the consistency of high winds, especially during autumn and winter. From October 20 until end of March, there is an almost constant Category 1 Hurricane (32m/s - 74 miles/hour) pounding the summit of Everest. During this period 3 out of 4 days experience above 32 ms/74 mph.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Issue # 1 for me,like most people interested in new routes,I've passed up lot's of stuff,showed what I think of as restraint,because it was going to take too many bolts.That mindset seems entirely gone today.
Issue #2 are the do-gooders.Those selfless folks that grid bolt cliffs,they have dozens of rap bolted routes,all done in just their particular style and mode.They paid for a Bosch and by god their gonna use it.What's left for the next generation,and the one after them?Well there is lot's of rock along the Colorado if yer willing to hike a little.....
Issue #3 This type of usage is finite.Go to Rumney,look at the place and ask yourself if you think this approach is anywhere near sustainable.We are the only user group allowed to drill holes,place metal anchors,rub chalk around.Yes,I know the dirtbikers are riding on BLM land,but you know if they drilled two holes and placed two bolts to hold their bikes up the man would come down on them like white on rice.Everybody else is not allowed to pick up a rock.Any other group,the slings would be litter.
Rumney is done with a tacit agreement with the Forest Service.It will not surprise me in the least if the end result is that the FS uses it as an example of what happens when we allow climbers free reign.
Look at the routes on English Grit.Look what they have accomplished.Do you think Whillans and Brown saw it coming?
A start would be,motorised drilling ground up only.Rap drilling by hand only,to slow the pace.
The pace.Sportos gotta have a zillion routes bolted,because they don't fill the soul.That's the problem.
I stayed outta the GU thread.I don't climb that hard,and I'm from the East.They could have rapped down to find the right way,and the stances,and bolted on the lead.Even that would have been better.
I got no problem with hooks.Every bolt(4)I've placed was from hooks.
Tom Stryker
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SuperTopo on the Web
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Until you have repeated the route, it can be done in any style by a subsequent party. Same applies to them. (If you won't do it again, then you have no right to expect a second ascender to do so in your style.)
Let us know!