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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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Sep 15, 2007 - 05:05pm PT
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I worked in the inner city area of LA and I never felt threatened. Maybe it is because my school has consequences and security. The fact is that since we have gang kids, we can not tolerate any bad behavior or it will get out of hand.
Also, I have a knack for handling my students. In fact most of the students liked me and the peer pressure they provided kept others in line. I was known for being a hard ass and fair. They also knew I cared and responded to such treatment. I always showed them respect and so I had it in return.
I had my biggest problems working in wealthy white communities. So what does that say about bad behavior?
You tell me...
AF
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John Moosie
climber
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Sep 15, 2007 - 06:09pm PT
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All physicians assistances and Nursing teachers are ignorant fools.
Lois, you called all administrators liberal pansies. Cracko is an administrator, therefore you called him a liberal pansy.. Perhaps you didn't get as good of an education as you think because that is basic logic. You threw the first shot, therefore you owe Cracko an apology. My guess is that you will not understand this.
Also, Anastasia's name is not Anesthasia.
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I am against vouchers because I do not wish to support religious education. There are many other reasons which many here have pointed out so I don't care to go into it. Read Todd's, Cracko's and Anastasia's post to understand my position. There are a few others here that speak well also but I am too lazy to go back to see which ones I liked.
Fix the problem, do not create another one. Smaller class size gets results. 20 students.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Sep 15, 2007 - 06:19pm PT
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I'd agree with LEB to a certain extent on the spoiling front. Society has become too materialistic and kids are too often spoiled these days.
But to compare the fact that you can teach 100+ adults in a university class to grade school class sizes is ridiculous. People are at university for the most part because they want to be. Grade school and middle school are miles different. Smaller class sizes do make a difference. And I guarantee you I got a better education at the small private college I went to with an average class size of 12, than do most kids at large public universities with class sizes in the hundreds.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Sep 15, 2007 - 07:21pm PT
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There are many flaws in the current education system. We are losing ground globally in our failure to adequately educate our students. When we spend 3 billion a week on a war and have to fight for 25 million for education something is flawed.
Until our teachers are paid a living wage and we value eduaction over prisons and war, we will be in this predicament. I am in favor of better fiunding for public education and against the voucher system for religious schools.
Socialized education and medicine should be of major concern in the next election. Unfortunately we will focus on gay marriage and the fear of terrorism.
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Festus
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Sep 15, 2007 - 08:20pm PT
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So we have a voucher system, and everyone gets to choose where their kids go. Now, how are you going to make that decision? Most people will want ratings, or some relative grading system. Fine. ABLE Elementary School has 100% kids whose first language, and language at home, is English, and 90% of the ABLE kids have parents with college degrees. BAKER Elementary has only 50% kids whose first language is English, and maybe 10% whose parents have college degrees. Let's assume the average student IQ is identical for each school. Both schools strive to teach the core elementary school basics of math, English, etc. Let's also assume both schools have equally proficient teachers.
Which school will score higher on overall student achievement tests?
Upon making those scores public, which school will most parents prefer?
As a result of the above, which students will most schools prefer and actively seek?
Does it seem to you that anyone is going to get the short end of this stick through absolutely no fault of their own?
THAT is the issue.
And I long ago vowed I would never address LEB in any thread, ever, a vow I have upheld until now, but in this one I have to break that vow, once and once only. LEB, on this topic you are so profoundly ignorant, so blinded by sweeping generalizations that defy logic or rational thought, and so caught up in the mindset that your hospital experiences somehow apply directly and universally to all education (not to mention life in general), that it's hard not to break out the choice words. I'm reminded of a thread a few months ago in which you saw absolutely no difference between the jobs of elementary/secondary teachers and the jobs of college professors. That pretty much says it all.
I support your right to type anything you want, at any time, but my answers to any comment you might possibly make are already written above if you care to practice the reading comprehension skills you think you possess but don't.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Sep 16, 2007 - 01:11am PT
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" Go back to teaching?.......no thank you. "
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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Sep 16, 2007 - 01:20am PT
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How about this idea...
First lets look at "history..."
During WW II the US lost it's first battles because troops could not change tactics without headquarters consent. Since that took too long, people died unnecessarily. Later when they changed the order of command and allowed the leadership on the battlefield to be in control, they won battles.
I think teachers should decide what their schools need, including if they need smaller class sizes, new resources "books," school policy, etc. Give us control and see what happens...
AF
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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Sep 16, 2007 - 02:26am PT
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Yo LEB.. must say I dont know you nor have I read your posts on other subjects... but I must say it would appear that you have a very naive view of education and a practical approach to making it work... for example, one wonders what you would do with the thousands of kids you would have suspended or expelled? Just let them run the streets? Remain ignorant? Just ignore them? Make their parents quit their jobs to stay home with the kids? Some of the other things you mention are almost laughable if they were not so misguided...
Tenure.. a good thing... just imagine that you were a really good teacher and you bought a house in the area and because you like the area have decided to stay there... so you do a bang up job and move up the pay scale and after ten years are making a salary of X dollars a year... but the school has some financial problems that it has decided to solve by getting rid of you and hiring Joe Newbie who is cheaper to employ because he is just starting out at a salary of X/2... so even though you are doing a good job and he is unproven you get the boot because the district wants to pay teachers less $$$... fair? How can we protect our job? Tenure. Now I know what you are thinking... what about a lousy teacher who got tenure and now is not doing the job? He keeps his job with no problems for him? No... there are proceedures in place to get rid of so called "bad" teachers and if they dont shape up then they are gone... I have seen many teachers who were not up to par dismissed, after a fair hearing and process, and others who didnt want to go through the hassle just asked to leave and some do... So for me tenure was an assurance that if I did what was expected, or more, then I would have job security...it was something I earned and continued to earn throughout my 29 year career. In my own experience... when I was 58 the district office decided that they needed more funds and the way to get them was to ask all the "older" (ie.. those higher on the pay scale) teachers to retire early so they could hire new teachers at a much lower rate... so they said they would pay us a years pay as a bonus to quit... my principal came to me and asked me please not to retire early as I was one of the best he had and would be impossible to replace due to my performance and ability... without tenure it would have been really easy for the district to say... "everyone over 55 you are fired" But with tenure and our union we teachers were treated with the respect we had earned after giving a lifetime of service to the district and some of us took the offer and some didnt, but we had the choice. Often the needs of the District conflict with the needs of a particular school... such situations are worked out responsably due to tenure and unions. Tenure is not a haven for incompitence... it is a safeguard to hardworking professionals.
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John Moosie
climber
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Sep 16, 2007 - 02:36am PT
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Just talked to Crimpie and she says that the studies she has seen on the affectiveness of bootcamp type discipline show it to not be affective in dealing with teens with problems. Instead the teens come out with more problems. Sort of like prison, the worst offenders just train the lesser offenders to be tougher.
Those damn liberals. They just ruin everything.
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E.L. "One"
Big Wall climber
Lancaster, California
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Sep 16, 2007 - 12:21pm PT
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Pansy,liberal administrator Cracko is back in the game baby !!!
LEB, you asked, " WHAT does E.L. do when a student disrespects Todd's wife and exactly what are the consequences when a student does not hand in an assignment to you which is four months overdue." Any student who defies or disrespects a teacher at my school is suspended. Generally, I will allow my teachers some say in this as they are the one's who must make the decision whether to refer said child to the office. And, do remember LEB, our system is also well represented by many liberal, pansy teachers!!! In my school, violence, intimidation, threats, defiance and disrespect are pretty much "zero tolerance" responses. In addition to a suspension from school, I always insist on meeting with the parent, student, and teacher before the child returns to school. As for a student not turning in homework, an epidemic problem, that is usually up to the teacher and his/her grading/homework policy. To suspend a student from school for not applying themselves, and missing another day of school, seems to defeat the purpose. I personally believe the real challenge is for teachers to look at their own instructional techniques in figuring out how to engage and motivate the unmotivated student. I have very talented teachers doing this every day on my campus. Overly punitive measures with regard to homework simply don't work with this generation of students and parents! And, by the way, the leading cause of student retention in grade level is the result of classwork not completed regardless of native intelligence. Lastly LEB, the research I have read suggests that most "Boot Camps" do not result in long term change. It may sound good, and feel good, but there is seldom anything in place to sustain a child's "growth" once he/she returns to the old environment. And despite the fact that I personally believe smaller class size pays huge dividends in terms of student achievement, research does NOT bear this out !! I'm open for cross examination LEB !!
Cracko
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E.L. "One"
Big Wall climber
Lancaster, California
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Sep 16, 2007 - 01:11pm PT
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LEB,
At the risk of being labeled "Mamsy Pamsy", I'm going to throw out another bit of research that may shed some light on this extremely complex problem of educating kids. Several years back the federal government completed the "National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health" which was the largest study in history on the health of American adolescents. The study included 90,000 surveys of 7th - 12th grade students, and 18,000 in-home interviews with parents. The objective of the study was to identify the major risk and protective factors of adolescent health. The findings....
* Teenagers who have strong emotional attachments to their parents and teachers are much less likely to use drugs and alcohol, attempt suicide, engage in violence or become sexually active at an early age.
* At school, positive relationships with teachers were found to be more important in protecting teenagers than any other factor, including classroom size, or the amount of training a teacher has.
* The emotional bond or "connectedness" factor was six times more important than was the amount of various activities teenagers did with their parents.
* Robert Blum M.D., a John Hopkins researcher, put it this way,
"Overriding classroom size, rules, all those structural things, the human element of the teacher making a hman connection with kids is the bottom line"
Well, you may not agree with this study, but you certainly can't afford to ignore it. Take one look at the lack of positive adult role models in sports and entertainment and you have clearly identified part of the problem.
Cracko
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E.L. "One"
Big Wall climber
Lancaster, California
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Sep 16, 2007 - 03:47pm PT
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LEB,
Agree that it is not an either/or phenomenon. The problem with your call for accountability is in the "how". I have been in education for 25 years. During the past ten, I have seen a huge increase in "Zero Tolerance" policies which hold students immediately accountable for acts of violence, intimidation, weapons, and willful defiance. Problem is, it tends to create an environment where everyone is suspending and expelling kids, waxing poetically about how they held the student accountable, and student behavior remains unchanged. Try as you might, you cannot legislate or compel good parenting. I don't know the circumstances surrounding Todd's wife and why she left education. You make it sound like she was assaulted and nobody did anything. Can't belive that. Most teachers leave education because of lack of resources, lack of support, ridiculous "accountability" systems like NCLB,low pay, and no opportunity to be creative in increasing student achievement. I agree with Anastasia in calling for empowering teachers instead of micro managing them with off-the-shelf reform. Teaching is an extremely challenging job. However, if 43% of teachers in this country do not really believe that All Children Can Learn, which research suggests, than I believe we have a more serious problem.
Cracko
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John Moosie
climber
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Sep 16, 2007 - 09:59pm PT
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Under zero tolerance, my nephew was suspended for one week for physically restraining a guy who was beating up another guy . My nephew is a straight A student and was only trying to keep a weaker kid from being beaten up.
In case you are wondering Lois, it didn't happen in Liberal California. It happended in Right Wing Texas. In California they try to asses the situation.
Those damn pansy liberals.
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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Sep 16, 2007 - 10:24pm PT
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All children can indeed learn but all children don't WANT to learn ... like taking a horse to water... to say that everyone can do something is not a very realistic statement no matter what our educational eggheads pontificate...
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E.L. "One"
Big Wall climber
Lancaster, California
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Sep 16, 2007 - 10:33pm PT
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Tom,
I agree, but I still think it is frightening to learn that most educators really don't believe all children can learn, or that they can only learn given proper parenting, proper control over resources, more resources, lower class size, etc. While I may agree at some level, I can't help but wonder what happens to kids if all those conditions are not met. My personal philosophy is that all people (and I do mean all) have a human potential that has not been reached. If not than what's the point??
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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Sep 16, 2007 - 11:04pm PT
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I think all children can learn...
It is just that sometimes other things are going on in their heads. Just imagine a gang kid that is worried about survival and his next meal; with those kind of issues "can he learn?"
Realistically I don't think so. It is very hard to have them concerned with school when their basic needs and safety isn't being met.
AF
Edit: Also note that they usually will never let you know about their problems. Who does when it is that threatening? That is why I just assume that there are always a big reason why a student is not performing. I try to remember that my job is to give them a chance.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 16, 2007 - 11:37pm PT
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Keep your kids out of public school and in a good one if at all possible.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Sep 16, 2007 - 11:39pm PT
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Just to clear up any confusion;...my wife quit teaching because we have 3 infants at home, one which has C. P. and requires going to lots of theropy sessions each week to help overcome his handi-cap. She was not so miserable she had to quit, nor was there any one incident that made her leave her profession. She is happy to be at home with her babies, and looks back at here 8 years of teaching as mostly enjoyable. She does not miss wacked out parents, naughty or violent children who come from abused homes, dickhead admins who are disrespectful to teachers (many are, but not all;...we got a GREAT one this year at our school!), getting up early, staying late, working on the weekends, catty petty teacher talk in the lunchroom, overcrowded classrooms, etc.....you know;....the funky stuff teachers get used to , but c'mon;....we really don't enjoy aspects of our jobs;......overall, she enjoyed it, was awesome at it, has her masters degree in Elem. Ed., and , under the circumstances, is over it;.....she cannot, and does not wish to return to teaching, does not miss it, has no regrets, and has fully moved on to the task at hand;...raising our babies. She appreciates her new "job", and is glad to be away from the part of teaching where, more often then we ever wish, desire, or deserve, teachers are treated disrespectfully by students, parents, other teachers, and admins........it's part of our job, and the "belly-punching" part of teaching that gives us our thick-skin, our toughness, as well as our sarcasim, our over-defensiveness, our tears, and our bad habits. When I retire in 3 years, I will be proud of all the hard work and lives I've touched, but I will be glad to kiss good-bye , the seedy side of teaching which I have grown to tolerate, work with and work around, and shut-off when need be to keep on keeping on........One day at a time;.....tomorrow, I will greet my awesome kindergarteners with a smile, a glad to see you, a song, and a positive attitude and my best to give them what they need , like , and deserve.....wouldn't/couldn't do it any other way......
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Sep 16, 2007 - 11:44pm PT
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Keep your kids out of public school and in a good one if at all possible.
Best advice so far.
I've seen how the "sausage is made" in the government, ("public" is the wrong nomenclature) schools
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E.L. "One"
Big Wall climber
Lancaster, California
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Sep 17, 2007 - 12:03pm PT
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Todd,
Thank you for that clarification and for what you do. Hope to get out your way soon and share stories!
Cracko
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